Muslims Fail to Prove Islam is a Religion of Peace in Debate

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

originally posted by: miniatus
Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.

According to who, Islam?

History shows us without a shadow of a doubt, that religion was invariably used as a façade to hide the true purpose of all wars of aggression. That is, the consolidation of power through fear and the acquisition of wealth in all its manifestations.

www.inthenameofallah.org...

Atheists and secular humanists consistently make the claim that religion is the #1 cause of violence and war throughout the history of mankind. One of hatetheism's key cheerleaders, Sam Harris, says in his book The End of Faith that faith and religion are “the most prolific source of violence in our history.”

While there’s no denying that campaigns such as the Crusades and the Thirty Years’ War foundationally rested on religious ideology, it is simply incorrect to assert that religion has been the primary cause of war. Moreover, although there’s also no disagreement that radical Islam was the spirit behind 9/11, it is a fallacy to say that all faiths contribute equally where religiously-motivated violence and warfare are concerned.

An interesting source of truth on the matter is Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature,2 which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars. However, when one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage is cut by more than half to 3.23%.

That means that all faiths combined – minus Islam – have caused less than 4% of all of humanity’s wars and violent conflicts. Further, they played no motivating role in the major wars that have resulted in the most loss of life. Kind of puts a serious dent into Harris’ argument, doesn’t it?

The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

My point is the root of war is for power and politics not religion. Your list is rediculous.

If you want to judge a culture you need to look from the outside in and the inside out and judge how they create and treat their own people.


Your list is not real. All it shows is once man gets powerful enough they manipulate other men (and women) to kill each other.

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Your asking for a simple answer. Your list only lists Christian populations not Christian and Muslim wars. Vietnam was not a Christian crusade.

Nor was Mao an atheist war. He did murder people who refused to give up their practice for instance. .

Anthropologically speaking the list is utter bs.

The muslim history is longer than the Christian history.. you know that right? ..

If you want to be FAIR you compare side by side .. time when they both exist ... in that slice.. the Christian death rate is brutal .. common sense.. you can't compare pre-christian history to all of their history.. you can.. but then we look pretty bad too .. but that's never counted..

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

originally posted by: miniatus
The muslim history is longer than the Christian history.. you know that right? ..

If you want to be FAIR you compare side by side .. time when they both exist ... in that slice.. the Christian death rate is brutal .. common sense.. you can't compare pre-christian history to all of their history.. you can.. but then we look pretty bad too .. but that's never counted..

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Uh no. There are many factors in social evolution.

Was Mao an atheist when he conquered. Did he kill people for practicing religion.

You can't find lists on the internet and assume they are true. A lot of factors go into analyzing culture.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Your asking for a simple answer. Your list only lists Christian populations not Christian and Muslim wars. Vietnam was not a Christian crusade.

Nor was Mao an atheist war. He did murder people who refused to give up their practice for instance. .

Anthropologically speaking the list is utter bs.

The point is simple.. how many christian nations started wars vs non christian... if you're claiming we weren't christian then or we didn't even CLAIM to do this for christian reasons you're silly.. Christianity was invoked many times for each ..

I swear I can read a thread now about how to change a flat tire, and within a half a page it turns to Christian bashing.

The crusades. *Yawns and logs off*

originally posted by: angeldoll
I swear I can read a thread now about how to change a flat tire, and within a half a page it turns to Christian bashing.

The crusades. *Yawns and logs off*

I am not anti-anyreligion .. but I think it's important to point out the realities or we're doomed to repeat the nonsense ..

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Your asking for a simple answer. Your list only lists Christian populations not Christian and Muslim wars. Vietnam was not a Christian crusade.

Nor was Mao an atheist war. He did murder people who refused to give up their practice for instance. .

Anthropologically speaking the list is utter bs.

The point is simple.. how many christian nations started wars vs non christian... if you're claiming we weren't christian then or we didn't even CLAIM to do this for christian reasons you're silly.. Christianity was invoked many times for each ..

So what. That isn't how philosophically the religion is.

Are you saying Mao, Stalin, Pol pot etc were not atheists when they did their deeds? Did they not kill probably as many people as on either list?

Just to point out I don't think any of these examples are accurate. However I wouldn't want to live in Saudia Arabia. I don't fit in with their beliefs at all. Thats how I would judge the culture to how I feel comfortable within it.

All the war stuff is far to complicated to say its Islam or Christianity or Atheism.

They can SAY what they want. The actual reasons are very different if you can look objectively.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Your asking for a simple answer. Your list only lists Christian populations not Christian and Muslim wars. Vietnam was not a Christian crusade.

Nor was Mao an atheist war. He did murder people who refused to give up their practice for instance. .

Anthropologically speaking the list is utter bs.

The point is simple.. how many christian nations started wars vs non christian... if you're claiming we weren't christian then or we didn't even CLAIM to do this for christian reasons you're silly.. Christianity was invoked many times for each ..

So what. That isn't how philosophically the religion is.

Are you saying Mao, Stalin, Pol pot etc were not atheists when they did their deeds? Did they not kill probably as many people as on either list?

Just to point out I don't think any of these examples are accurate. However I wouldn't want to live in Saudia Arabia. I don't fit in with their beliefs at all. Thats how I would judge the culture to how I feel comfortable within it.

All the war stuff is far to complicated to say its Islam or Christianity or Atheism.

They can SAY what they want. The actual reasons are very different if you can look objectively.

You put a lot of words in my mouth and you're making arguments I didn't make .. I'm not going down that path... people are capable of evil, religion be damned... that's the point... you can't blame so wildly ... use your mind

originally posted by: machineintelligence
a reply to: reldra

It is the subject of this thread not anything else.

The title was taken from the video.

Ok, the subject of this thread, which is the subject of the video. You cannot say this is not an instigation to infer the religion is not peaceful.

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: miniatus

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: miniatus
a reply to: luthier

I didn't create the list it was a list based on all known stats..

No it wasn't. It was manipulated to prove a point.

You can use the loose and rediculous classification to include atheism of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, etc. But they like most on your list did not declare atheism the cause of war.

Nobody said atheism was declaration of war, what are you talking about? it has nothing to do with what I said... I'm NOT an atheist ..

I am curious though since I have looked this up.. find one example of atheism as a cause of war? .. speak up

Your asking for a simple answer. Your list only lists Christian populations not Christian and Muslim wars. Vietnam was not a Christian crusade.

Nor was Mao an atheist war. He did murder people who refused to give up their practice for instance. .

Anthropologically speaking the list is utter bs.

The point is simple.. how many christian nations started wars vs non christian... if you're claiming we weren't christian then or we didn't even CLAIM to do this for christian reasons you're silly.. Christianity was invoked many times for each ..

So what. That isn't how philosophically the religion is.

Are you saying Mao, Stalin, Pol pot etc were not atheists when they did their deeds? Did they not kill probably as many people as on either list?

Just to point out I don't think any of these examples are accurate. However I wouldn't want to live in Saudia Arabia. I don't fit in with their beliefs at all. Thats how I would judge the culture to how I feel comfortable within it.

All the war stuff is far to complicated to say its Islam or Christianity or Atheism.

They can SAY what they want. The actual reasons are very different if you can look objectively.

You put a lot of words in my mouth and you're making arguments I didn't make .. I'm not going down that path... people are capable of evil, religion be damned... that's the point... you can't blame so wildly ... use your mind

You made the argument by posting the stupid list. It's meaningless and misleading.

Wars are not over religion. Religion is used to control peoples thinking as is things like Stalin and Maos version of communism which is godless.

My point. Would you rather live in the UK or Yemin?

a reply to: reldra

You did not watch this debate. Will you confirm?

a reply to: miniatus

You have not watched the debate in the OP will you confirm this?

a reply to: machineintelligence

Just want to apologize to the op before I bow out for the night . I did want to argue the cultural aspects and while war is a part of culture its not the defining factor in most cases.

I love debate. I liked this one. The Hitchins one is also good that was presented on page one. But so is Hitchins and Craig. All good stuff. There are wonderful Muslims out there. In my experience the Sufis are really great people. Lots of Modern Muslims trying to bring it forward too.

However that doesn't mean the massive dark ages portion left shouldn't be scrutinized, called out diplomatically, and helped along in terms of human rights. Their is a far far left that seems to forget this behaviour does exist in mass amounts Today. Not just 500 yeara ago.

I sincerely hope we can all progress towards having liberty for all.. I have a lot more tolorance for tradition and superstitions when Liberty is respected.

From my point of view every idea from any religion can be logically measured/analyzed against the universal golden rule. By doing this you can verify if it is for the good of all or a push for one group over another.

Muhammad teaching in the Quran do not measure up from my point of view. Paul in the bible is the same and the old testament is also not measuring up.

Now for the ones that I have not the awareness to find any flaws with yet: Nanak (Sikhism), Buddhism, Taoism, Rumi (Sufi), Yeshua (New testament).

a reply to: machineintelligence

Relevant and concise, the best arguments I have heard, from both sides.

Unimpeachable persons all around lend particular credibility to this debate, it should not be overlooked.

The sweeping failure gives me slight pause as to the qualifications of the “peaceful” faction.

I think this is number one recommended content for respirating humans.

From the debate the side that maintains that Islam is a religion of peace states that of the population of 1.5 billion Muslims only about 7% in their opinion are radicalized world wide. That by my math would equal 105,000,000 radicalized Islamist. That as a nation would be about less than half the size of the voting population of the United States as a voting block.

We should I think address this population and what they stand for.

a reply to: luthier

Do you think there should be a second attempt at a sort of renewal or reaffirmation in the Islamic faith?