Debating Theism

I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational. So, theists, are any of you up for it? Just post and give me your religion. If you do not have a religion or if your idea of God is slightly different from your religion, then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

a reply to: scorpio84

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: scorpio84
Buddhist. Everything is one.

Morbidly curious. Buddhism is my pokeball. Battle it.

a reply to: infolurker

I'm glad you used my thread to advertise yours - but kindly stick to the topic. Do you have a concept of god you think can stand the strain of logical scrutiny? Tell me about your god and I will show through simple reasoning why your belief is irrational.

originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: infolurker

I'm glad you used my thread to advertise yours - but kindly stick to the topic. Do you have a concept of god you think can stand the strain of logical scrutiny? Tell me about your god and I will show through simple reasoning why your belief is irrational.

Why?

Evangelical Atheist? What is the purpose? You can prove nothing.

Evangelical Atheist: An evangelical atheist is one who not only believes there is no god or other supreme being, but is obsessed with convincing everyone around them to become an atheist too, usually through hard-line intolerance (the kind they accuse other religions of).

When cornered they usually try to put down their opponent's religion and bash them for 'blind faith', not realizing that their belief that there is no god is no more or less valid or provable than the other guy's belief that there is one. Not to be confused with normal atheists/agnostics, who for the most part just don't talk about religion and accept the beliefs of those around them as their prerogative.

Evangelical atheists are particularly common on the Internet, as organized religion is generally accepted as part of 'the system' of global human society, and lately it's become cool on the Internet to hate 'the system'. Evangelical atheist usually seeks to "convert" borderline theists, often by engaging in debate with fundamentalists.

a reply to: scorpio84

What is the purpose of debating religion?

It all boils down to individual faith. If I won a debate against you, you wouldn't change your beliefs simply because of a debate.

My "faith" is that we are smart tool making mammals who invented the tool of religion to explain the unknown after we die.

But if other people want to believe something differently, they should have that freedom to do so.

Winning/losing a debate won't change someones faith.

Stay on topic, folks. I will no answer any posts that do not pertain directly to the topic of the thread. I have tried doing so in other threads and it just serves to detract from the original point. I honestly am not concerned with whether or not you think a thread such as this is meritorious- if you do, join in and let's play the game. If you don't, find another thread to reply to. This isn't a debate about whether or not we should debate religion (that would be more at home in my agnosticism thread than here).

a reply to: Pinke

I like Buddhism, too. Maybe it's from having lived in Thailand for 6 years and being surrounded by it. Anyhow, I direct you to a quote in the OP:

I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational.

I said nothing about viable philosophical claims. Buddhists are atheists - so there is no god to prove the irrationality of, so to speak.

sooo whats a "posit" scorpio84?

a reply to: malevolent

If it will help you understand the OP better and enable you to take part in the discussion, I direct you to this clear explanation of the word "posit". Thank you for your inquiry - the pursuit of knowledge is important.

a reply to: infolurker

So what is your concept of God?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: scorpio84

What is the purpose of debating religion?

It all boils down to individual faith. If I won a debate against you, you wouldn't change your beliefs simply because of a debate.

My "faith" is that we are smart tool making mammals who invented the tool of religion to explain the unknown after we die.

But if other people want to believe something differently, they should have that freedom to do so.

Winning/losing a debate won't change someones faith.

What is your concept of God?

Some would define the word irrational a bit differently...

a reply to: Murgatroid

I'm assuming you are able to google the definition of "irrational." That being said, do you have a concept of god that you think could stand up to logical scrutiny?

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: scorpio84

What is the purpose of debating religion?

It all boils down to individual faith. If I won a debate against you, you wouldn't change your beliefs simply because of a debate.

My "faith" is that we are smart tool making mammals who invented the tool of religion to explain the unknown after we die.

But if other people want to believe something differently, they should have that freedom to do so.

Winning/losing a debate won't change someones faith.

What is your concept of God?

I don't have one.

If there is a god, I don't have the capacity to describe it/him/her.

I'm just a hairy little mammal on some planet with opposable thumbs.

edit; I have opposable thumbs, not the planet.

Somebody give him an answer, I want to see where he is going with this. Or if he's just baiting for no apparent reason

originally posted by: scorpio84
I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational. So, theists, are any of you up for it? Just post and give me your religion. If you do not have a religion or if your idea of God is slightly different from your religion, then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

ANY 'belief' is irrational!
No one, with 'free-will' and 'logic', 'chooses' to 'believe' anything!
A 'belief is a pathologically symptomatic infection of the imagination/ego!
A 'religion' is the congregation of those infected with the same strain of 'belief'!
'Beliefs are CAUGHT and SPREAD!
Like other infections.
This one is passed predominately by 'word of mouth'!
'Caught' by hearing!
There appears to be an inverse proportional relationship between the ability of a person to think critically, for himself, and the quantity and severity of the 'belief' infection/infestation; the greater the ability to think (philosophically), the less the vulnerability to 'belief'!

Being an infection of the irrational 'ego', (all 'identity' = ego), to 'threaten' (or even to appear to threaten) a 'belief', is taken as a 'personal attack', by the believer, and he responds emotionally! And the responses are all very consistently symptomatic, from the 'intellectual' use of fallacies, to no end of the violence... to genocide, is 'emotionally' powered 'self' (ego)-defense!
'Beliefs' are insanity!
No one harms another, deliberately, unless they host some 'belief' or other!

So, obviously I agree with you that 'belief' (but; in anything!) is 'irrational'! Actually, insane!
One symptom of an infection is the inhibition of cognitive and intellectual function ('self-defense' for the infection!), unto insanity!

then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

Omni-!
One!
ALL inclusive!

There is One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universal Reality!

Existence = the complete Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = Love = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

There you go. *__-

On a personal level, I want to get involved in philosophical/theological debate.

The 'problem' with a 'debate' is that it, too, is an 'irrational/emotionally' powered construct, for the appeasement of the shaky ego, a having to be right while the other is wrong!
That toxic crap is enhanced by Aristotle's errors!
The purpose of a debate, other than 'winning'?
To 'change' the other person's thoughts/concepts/mind!
All emotional salve for an unhealthy ego, and for the feeding and validation of your own 'beliefs'!

"The acceptance and understanding of other Perspectives furthers our acquaintance with Reality!"

Every Perspective (us) is unique every moment of existence!

"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" - The First Law of Soul Dynamics (Book of Fudd)

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)

originally posted by: infolurker
originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: infolurker
You can prove nothing.

I don't think so! *__-

originally posted by: Ghost147
Somebody give him an answer, I want to see where he is going with this. Or if he's just baiting for no apparent reason

It will be seen as baiting by some, but it isn't. My intention is not to make people stop believing, if they do. On a personal level, I want to get involved in philosophical/theological debate. There is no ill intention in this thread.

originally posted by: scorpio84
Just post and give me your religion. If you do not have a religion or if your idea of God is slightly different from your religion, then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

I'll take the bait. Islam is my religion, non-denominational. I worship, respect & fear the Creator of what we call "existence". (warning: I'm going to type a lot lol)

I'll try to explain my acceptance of God & Shaytan from a purely "rational" perspective. But I'll start by saying this: I don't drink alcohol, haven't used any type of recreational drugs since I was in high school, and have never been diagnosed with any mental disorders. I'd tell you more about my educational background but there's no point, since being "intelligent" or "dumb" has nothing to do with this.

For nearly all of my life, I've seen visions & "hallucinations". Some of those hallucinations have taught me good things and tried to help me in life; while others have tried to lure me into bad situations & hurt me.

For nearly all my life, I've had 2 separate sets of voices in my head. One set taught me the horrors of humankind, taught me that humans weren't worthy of ruling the Earth, and guided me towards "negative knowledge" (as in, how to manipulate, control, rule, and maintain power over others). I believe a vague scientific term for it is "intrusive thoughts". The other set of voices gave me positive guidance in life, encouraged me to help others (even when I didn't want to help them), chastised me when I did wrong, and forewarned me of negative situations & how to avoid them. I believe the scientific terms for this are our "conscience" & "intuition".

And for nearly all of my life, I've been able to randomly feel the presence of things I couldn't see. Those presences would line up with the corresponding voices & hallucinations. I spent my early high school years testing the voices, hallucinations, and presences to see if they were accurate. I'd literally test if their conclusions were right or wrong, test if they could physically touch me, and other things like this.

After years of learning & testing, I came to my 1st set of conclusions: the "evil" presence was real; it was correct in its assessment of humankind's flaws; it could teach me things no person could teach me; it wanted to destroy me & every other living creature (particularly humans & evil humans); it could only physically "touch" me while I was in an altered spiritual state (drugs, meditation, half sleep, etc); and I absolutely wanted to destroy it once I'd learned all of its techniques. For what it's worth, at the time, I believed I was destined to go into a spiritual realm & fight that presence until one of us was annihilated. Yeah... Anyway, I started trying to match up my conclusions with the ghost, spirits, youkai, legends, and demons from different religions & cultures. "Shaytan" as depicted in the Qur'an matched my conclusions.

It took me until my Senior year in high school to come to my conclusion about God. I'd kept testing the positive voices & hallucinations with ridiculous & arrogant tests and it would "answer" me in equally ridiculously ways. Sometimes directly in my head, sometimes through people, sometimes with large scale or small scale "coincidences", etc. The coincidences, voices, and hallucinations kept corresponding in conjunction at a rate that I could no longer consider random.

Yet I stayed defiant until roughly a month before I turned 18. The positive voices & "presence" got sick of my non-commitment, so it chastised me for 2 straight weeks. The hallucinations & voices kept telling me that this punishment was nothing compared to Hell. But I stayed defiant. I went to the hospital & they couldn't find anything wrong with me, even though there was a hallucination standing between 2 of the doctors the whole time. They didn't even give me any medication for the hallucinations (fail doctors lol). Then the chastisement reached its peak, everything blocked out (maybe I passed out?), and the presence led me to the entrance into something horrific. This & my 2 weeks straight of being chastised finally broke me, so I fell on my knees & made a deal with God.

The chastisement went away and the presence said it would then reward me with something. Some occult groups call it "the sight" or "being a seer". Basically, it let me see a soul & how much influence jinn had on that particular soul. It was cool at first, then it started freaking me out, then I begged for it to be taken away. This was literally just the beginning of my "irrational" path as a Muslim (which literally means "one who submits to God").

My parents are also Muslims but they never tried to force us down that path. I'd visited churches with my friends & studied many different religions to quench my curiosity for the truth. And because of my reasons for becoming a Muslim, it wouldn't matter to me if the Qur'an was real or not, if all of the Prophets were real or fake, or anything like that. Because none of those things had anything to do with why I'm a Muslim. That's also why I'm not bound by any denomination or their interpretations. And to be blunt, I'm more convinced that God, His Angels, Shaytan, Heaven & Hell are real than I am that any of you are real. After all, everyone in this thread could actually be "trolls", alternate accounts, law students who post online to gain experience for debating points you don't agree with, or even some of those programs that test if people can distinguish between AI & real people.

I think I've been open & clear with my words. So where are you going with this?