I want to get perspective on transgender people

i have a question to but it will not be as you think,i also go on a chat program a bit like ats but with voice,
now i was eating my dinner listening ,and as the real world is it is full of all walks of life ,from jewish,german,american,muslim etc .
the same applies to gender hetro,trans,bi,lesbian,and some that like dressing as babies even some whose obsession is with fruit i kid you not on the last.
now they where in heated debate with someone who was slightly nazi as they described it,
and where claiming to be radical and they stated he was sick etc ,now swearing is allowed it is not censored as like ats so
not everything is pc and gives a much better picture in reality as people say whats really on there mind so it gets very deep and emmotional at times..
now here is the thing they actually sounded more nazi than the guy who was nazi,
surely in a world where the genders have rights and all denominations have rights ,if the guy wants to be a nazi type thats his choice to,why has he no rights in their opinion but they do.
it was like a double standard and it was quite shocking to hear
that why they where claiming freedom for their choice yet they gave him no quarter for his choice.
oh it was not me so do not think it was .
but should we not let him have his beliefs as that is his choice to ??

a reply to: stuthealien
Do you not live in the states? Because here in the states it isn't illegal to be a Nazi in any way. Nor is it illegal to express Nazi sentiment. If it is illegal in your country, then you should take that up with your government because I cannot relate to such a thing.

However I really don't think it is appropriate to compare a desire as a transgendered person to act as the sex they feel on the inside to someone wanting to be a Nazi.

a reply to: stuthealien

We recognize that epileptics aren't infected with demons, it doesn't mean that psychopaths and serial killers suddenly get a free ride.

Argument seems to be:
1. Society tolerates a pile of things
2. Being a racist Nazi can be tolerated
3. Racist Nazis should be tolerated

When you isolate the argument to its bare components it loses a lot of weight. People aren't arguing that just because something 'can' be tolerated it 'should' 'be tolerated. Besides this, if it is an argument for discrimination that is being presented ...

Strip bars still haven't been forced to hire over weight strippers. Bars are allowed to discriminate over appearance. In most states and countries Hooters is still allowed to hire predominantly women. Its not like discrimination laws were invented and the sky fell.

Obvious side joke (but true): we do tolerate this anyway. Its called religion. Joking aside, in many countries religious businesses are allowed to discriminate against GLBT employees.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Antipathy17

originally posted by: Poppcocked
Does Bruce Jenner buy tampons?

completely irrelevant. Thanks for not contributing.

The stars on his post should tell you all you need to know as to why anybody may be reluctant to even try to speak seriously on the subject.

When every attempt at educating a person is reduced to the same juvenile dismissals, rediculous comparisons, and idiotic oversimplifications, it becomes difficult to believe in a person's sincerity when they say "No, seriously, I want to learn from you even though I find you invalid and disgusting".

never said anything about them being invalid.

originally posted by: wasaka

originally posted by: Antipathy17

I hate saying it because I respect those people as individuals
but I can't but help look away if I know someone is transgender.

First, let's come to terms with the fact there are
many "two spirited" people in this world and this
has always been true.

The most frequently cited estimate is that 700,000
people in the United States, or about 0.2 to 0.3 percent
of the population, are transgender, though some experts
say the true number is probably greater than that.

Second, the reason you "look away" is because
of your FEAR. It is the same reason people will
"look away" when they see a person with a face
that is disfigured: FEAR.

When we see a person with a physical deformity,
it is quite common to look away. Why? Because
we FEAR how such a deformity would effect our
quality of life. If we FEAR how other people
might treat us, we look away, not wanting
to entertain that disturbing idea.

It is also common to stare at a person who is
androgynous, because they are attractive.
This attraction can provoke toxic emotions
in some people. They can become discussed
by their own desires. Why? Once again FEAR.
In such is case it is a FEAR of other people's
judgement, and other people's opions.

Most TRANS people you pass on the street
go by completely unnoticed. Most female
to male TRANS people who have facial
hair are completely passable, and you
would never know.

The issue here is why you "look away."

I suggest the reason is you, and others
like you, are still seeking validation
from other people. When you let go
of that need for validation, then you
start to love and accept other people
who are different from you.

Here is something to consider:

L = LISTEN
- those who do not love, do not listen. When we refuse to listen, we refuse to love.

O = BE OPEN
- those who love, are open. When we are open, there is healing for the world.

V = VALUE VERITAS
- those who do not love, value the valueless (and the Truth is not in them)

E = BE EMPHATIC
- those who do love, have compassion for themselves and others.

No, no fear. Ill openly discuss with a transgender in person if they want. I don't like looking at poop cause it grosses me out (not saying transgender people are poop, but some people like to look at poop. nope, not looking for validation from anyone.

a reply to: wasaka

The sources used in that piece were shown to be misleading in another thread. You may want to fix that. If you are unaware of what I mean basically they called anyone transgender who died prematurely an act of persecution even though the actual details of the events say otherwise as corroborated by the authorities.

Restrooms do have stalls, does that matter? But little girls P.E. showers may not in school, so I think the big issue right now as far as restrooms/showers should be in schools. The way I understand it is easy, a body with the brain of an opposite sex and the owner wants them to match up. Lots of people feel that way but aren't willing to drag themselves and everyone through a misunderstood process that makes lots of people uncomfortable but themselves. I know of two round here and after talking to them , not about their condition just in general, I found these two to be mentally challenged and not because they are trans but the way they are socially inadequate in general conversation.

a reply to: Antipathy17

I admire your initiative and courage in stepping outside your comfort zone to go right to the source to discuss a difficult issue. And you are doing so with grace and diplomacy. This is the type of discussion that keeps me coming back to ATS... almost like an addiction!

I am not a transgender person, so I cannot speak from that perspective. But I can suggest that to understand the physiological factors involved, you might want to research about endocrine disrupters and synthetic hormones that have polluted our soil, water, air, food, etc. Much research suggests that these substances are creating hormonal imbalances which directly affect gender. The research has shown that our gender can be influenced/impacted in various ways and at various stages of development, including (perhaps especially?) during gestation. Hence the sense that gender can be "fluid," as opposed to set in stone. This is not to say that these substances are the one and only cause of transgenderism; obviously, since transgender persons have been among us since time immemorial. But it does show that gender can be affected in known and unknown ways.

From my own efforts -- research, discussion, observation, etc. -- I've come to the conclusion that the transgender issue (and, therefore, transgender persons) is being twisted and twerked and otherwise manipulated for political reasons, in large part to keep us fighting amongst ourselves (divide-and-conquer), but also to protect Big Pharma and Big Ag. My biggest fear is that legitimate health issues can and are being exploited for further profit, with little to no thought of the real impact on people's lives. Specifically by declaring the poison the cure... i.e., a biologic male feels female because of external pollutants, so they are given even more female hormones and declared a woman.

I don't have all the answers. But I do know that transgender persons are people, doing their best with the hand they've been dealt, just like all of us, and deserve the same respect and basic rights. I appreciate your efforts to discuss and learn, rather than hate and condemn. That's the ATS spirit!

Good luck

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Abysha

Your attitude is terrible. Someone asks for more information, because they're perhaps realizing that transgender people may be more than fags in dresses, and you lash out at them. You're what you hate, and you don't realize it.

We have an OP being honest, and because they don't automatically say that transgender people are all beautiful and that they are in no way uncomfortable with the whole thing, you refuse to answer any questions and belittle them.

Sex reassignment surgery is incredibly disturbing/disgusting unless you know more about it. Not everyone gets it, so to them it's someone that has mental problems, self mutilating a VERY sacred part of their body because the mental problems are still not understood. Instead of being morally superior, why don't you try to explain that for these people the issue is more that they are born with a defect, that their brains don't align with their genitalia, and it's not the same thing as wearing a garish outfit for attention or getting your tongue split for shock value?

There are a few people here that have been very patient with me, and it's greatly changed my perspective. I never hated or wished harm on transgender people, but I was very unaccepting of them. It's incredibly hard for me to wrap my head around, I can't imagine having my gender identity not match my sex. A lot of the hostility I harbored towards transgender people was because I've only seen the type that insist everyone accept them completely and fully. Freija wasn't an asshole, so I listened to her and did a little growing up. She didn't revert to the kind of petty crap you seem to love. I went from intentionally calling male to female folks "he" to piss people off, to supporting legislation protecting transgender people from discrimination. I'm coming around on the bathroom "issue" too.

Really take a look at your tactic. If you actually want to be a good ambassador for yourself (making assumptions, I'm aware of the spelling) or something you believe in, be professional. you're just fanning the flames of hate and division when you invalidate how someone feels and insult their morals and intelligence.

thanks for the well written reply. I appreciate it.

informative and as well I appreciate the reply

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

But it IS a mental disorder

www.psychologytoday.com...



I don't think reassignment surgery is disgusting though. I applaud all transgendered people who go through with it.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Antipathy17

I admire your initiative and courage in stepping outside your comfort zone to go right to the source to discuss a difficult issue. And you are doing so with grace and diplomacy. This is the type of discussion that keeps me coming back to ATS... almost like an addiction!

I am not a transgender person, so I cannot speak from that perspective. But I can suggest that to understand the physiological factors involved, you might want to research about endocrine disrupters and synthetic hormones that have polluted our soil, water, air, food, etc. Much research suggests that these substances are creating hormonal imbalances which directly affect gender. The research has shown that our gender can be influenced/impacted in various ways and at various stages of development, including (perhaps especially?) during gestation. Hence the sense that gender can be "fluid," as opposed to set in stone. This is not to say that these substances are the one and only cause of transgenderism; obviously, since transgender persons have been among us since time immemorial. But it does show that gender can be affected in known and unknown ways.

From my own efforts -- research, discussion, observation, etc. -- I've come to the conclusion that the transgender issue (and, therefore, transgender persons) is being twisted and twerked and otherwise manipulated for political reasons, in large part to keep us fighting amongst ourselves (divide-and-conquer), but also to protect Big Pharma and Big Ag. My biggest fear is that legitimate health issues can and are being exploited for further profit, with little to no thought of the real impact on people's lives. Specifically by declaring the poison the cure... i.e., a biologic male feels female because of external pollutants, so they are given even more female hormones and declared a woman.

I don't have all the answers. But I do know that transgender persons are people, doing their best with the hand they've been dealt, just like all of us, and deserve the same respect and basic rights. I appreciate your efforts to discuss and learn, rather than hate and condemn. That's the ATS spirit!

Good luck

Your post made me happy. I never knew anything about transgenderism being fluent. The reason I haven't done too much research on the mental or chemical components of this is because the bigotry is overwhelming the field and I'm waiting for more trust worthy / more sourced studies

Great post by Boadicea!

a reply to: Antipathy17

There is a LOT of information on the Internet by, for and about transgender people. You will learn a LOT more from a few simple searches and some reading. I am not transgender, but I have read a LOT and learned a lot about it. I'm totally comfortable with anyone who is LGBT+.

Making a thread about it on ATS, after having been here for a couple years and, no doubt, having seen the many rude and hurtful threads and comments by members here could be seen as just stirring the pot. I'm not saying you're doing that, because I don't know, but IMO, ATS is NOT the place to learn about GID. It's the place to learn how hateful and mean people can be about something they clearly have no understanding, knowledge or compassion, but LOTS of nasty opinions, about. So, I understand Abysha's hesitations perfectly.

Several transgender members have been banned or left because of the toxic environment. It's not a "safe place" to discuss it because many here are so heartless and cruel about it.

So, if you really want to know more about it, I would suggest some internet research.

Gender Identity Disorder (or Gender Dysphoria) is the condition or diagnosis of a person born in an opposite-gender body.
Transgender relates to the person who has GID. (a transgender woman is one who is a woman born in a male body.)

Gender Pronouns

Answers to Your Questions about Transgender People, Gender Identity and Gender Expression

It seems we need to discuss and come to the conclusion that this are either inherent in man or a mental disorder.

"We", as in ATS members? Because doctors and scientists are the people to go to for that information, not ATS members... All you're likely to get here are smart ass comments about Caitlyn Jenner and "chicks with dicks", as so many LOVE to say...

I would guess that your personal disgust about it all is something that no one here can help you with. Your own education (from competent sources) is much more likely to bring you the information you need to rid yourself of your negative judgments about gender identity issues.

Hope this helps.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Great post by Boadicea!

a reply to: Antipathy17

There is a LOT of information on the Internet by, for and about transgender people. You will learn a LOT more from a few simple searches and some reading. I am not transgender, but I have read a LOT and learned a lot about it. I'm totally comfortable with anyone who is LGBT+.

Making a thread about it on ATS, after having been here for a couple years and, no doubt, having seen the many rude and hurtful threads and comments by members here could be seen as just stirring the pot. I'm not saying you're doing that, because I don't know, but IMO, ATS is NOT the place to learn about GID. It's the place to learn how hateful and mean people can be about something they clearly have no understanding, knowledge or compassion, but LOTS of nasty opinions, about. So, I understand Abysha's hesitations perfectly.

Several transgender members have been banned or left because of the toxic environment. It's not a "safe place" to discuss it because many here are so heartless and cruel about it.

So, if you really want to know more about it, I would suggest some internet research.

Gender Identity Disorder (or Gender Dysphoria) is the condition or diagnosis of a person born in an opposite-gender body.
Transgender relates to the person who has GID. (a transgender woman is one who is a woman born in a male body.)

Gender Pronouns

Answers to Your Questions about Transgender People, Gender Identity and Gender Expression

It seems we need to discuss and come to the conclusion that this are either inherent in man or a mental disorder.

"We", as in ATS members? Because doctors and scientists are the people to go to for that information, not ATS members... All you're likely to get here are smart ass comments about Caitlyn Jenner and "chicks with dicks", as so many LOVE to say...

I would guess that your personal disgust about it all is something that no one here can help you with. Your own education (from competent sources) is much more likely to bring you the information you need to rid yourself of your negative judgments about gender identity issues.

Hope this helps.

I think my last reply touches upon your reply. I want to learn more but I don't think its a subject well enough researched. I could be wrong. We still need to discuss how to accept transgender people and make everyone comfortable in "private" areas.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So you prefer biased information? That is how your post comes across. It sounds like you advise the OP against discussion of the topic here because some people will have dissenting opinions or facts to present. So if people don't agree , then this isn't a "safe space" (wtf is?) ? You are saying that you cant get the truth unless you get information from advocacy groups? The truth comes from looking at both sides of a view not just being shamed into having to agree with someone.

Abysha's attitude is exactly why some have issue with this conversation. Unless she is preaching to the crowd everyone else are "swine". More perpetuation of the collective pariah complex from GLBQ supporters.

originally posted by: Antipathy17

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Great post by Boadicea!

a reply to: Antipathy17

There is a LOT of information on the Internet by, for and about transgender people. You will learn a LOT more from a few simple searches and some reading. I am not transgender, but I have read a LOT and learned a lot about it. I'm totally comfortable with anyone who is LGBT+.

Making a thread about it on ATS, after having been here for a couple years and, no doubt, having seen the many rude and hurtful threads and comments by members here could be seen as just stirring the pot. I'm not saying you're doing that, because I don't know, but IMO, ATS is NOT the place to learn about GID. It's the place to learn how hateful and mean people can be about something they clearly have no understanding, knowledge or compassion, but LOTS of nasty opinions, about. So, I understand Abysha's hesitations perfectly.

Several transgender members have been banned or left because of the toxic environment. It's not a "safe place" to discuss it because many here are so heartless and cruel about it.

So, if you really want to know more about it, I would suggest some internet research.

Gender Identity Disorder (or Gender Dysphoria) is the condition or diagnosis of a person born in an opposite-gender body.
Transgender relates to the person who has GID. (a transgender woman is one who is a woman born in a male body.)

Gender Pronouns

Answers to Your Questions about Transgender People, Gender Identity and Gender Expression

It seems we need to discuss and come to the conclusion that this are either inherent in man or a mental disorder.

"We", as in ATS members? Because doctors and scientists are the people to go to for that information, not ATS members... All you're likely to get here are smart ass comments about Caitlyn Jenner and "chicks with dicks", as so many LOVE to say...

I would guess that your personal disgust about it all is something that no one here can help you with. Your own education (from competent sources) is much more likely to bring you the information you need to rid yourself of your negative judgments about gender identity issues.

Hope this helps.

I think my last reply touches upon your reply. I want to learn more but I don't think its a subject well enough researched. I could be wrong. We still need to discuss how to accept transgender people and make everyone comfortable in "private" areas.

also, its considered GID as you stated. Why is it than that we tell people with a disorder to indulge and others need to assist them in that by being comfortable about them indulging in public... Weather this is a disorder or not seems to need to be reinvestigated.

a reply to: Antipathy17

Like I say, references available on request.

There are a few people who read constantly about this subject on this board; often keeping up to date with science journals etc ... Interesting factoid for you ... I've offered references and books countless times on this board, even offering to dig up the material personally.

Wanna guess how many people have said yes? It starts with a Z.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
We still need to discuss how to accept transgender people and make everyone comfortable in "private" areas.

I'm comfortable. I accept it 100%. I'm not any more afraid of a transgender woman or a gay woman in the bathroom than I am of ANY woman. I don't really think anyone is afraid. They use that as an excuse to justify their bigotry. How many news stories have we heard of genuine transgender people attacking others in the bathroom??? It's like being afraid of fairy dust.

It's not my place to "make everyone comfortable" or help anyone to accept reality. It's their job to educate themselves.

Are YOU uncomfortable in private areas?

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So you prefer biased information? That is how your post comes across. It sounds like you advise the OP against discussion of the topic here because some people will have dissenting opinions or facts to present. So if people don't agree , then this isn't a "safe space" (wtf is?) ? You are saying that you cant get the truth unless you get information from advocacy groups? The truth comes from looking at both sides of a view not just being shamed into having to agree with someone.

Abysha's attitude is exactly why some have issue with this conversation. Unless she is preaching to the crowd everyone else are "swine". More perpetuation of the collective pariah complex from GLBQ supporters.

"I hate" was the autocorrect... I meant I agree

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Antipathy17
We still need to discuss how to accept transgender people and make everyone comfortable in "private" areas.

I'm comfortable. I accept it 100%. I'm not any more afraid of a transgender woman or a gay woman in the bathroom than I am of ANY woman. I don't really think anyone is afraid. They use that as an excuse to justify their bigotry. How many news stories have we heard of genuine transgender people attacking others in the bathroom??? It's like being afraid of fairy dust.

It's not my place to "make everyone comfortable" or help anyone to accept reality. It's their job to educate themselves.

Are YOU uncomfortable in private areas?

I never said anything about people being afraid OR attacked. I was alluding to bathrooms for male and female. which I touched upon in the original OP. if its not their job to make people comfortable than we should have unisex bathrooms and lockers. Which is another thing brought up for discuss.

don't get all negative and reply to me out of context as if I was on the attack.