The U.S. Will See Secession In the Coming Years

a reply to: Metallicus

If there would exist a place where there are more freedoms and less government, I might be encouraged.

originally posted by: NiteDawn
a reply to: Metallicus

There is no where in the constitution to secede from the United States. You would have to declare war and forcibly remove yourself.

This is an excellent talking point, and needs to be pushed to the front.
For at least the last 150 years the Federal government has forcefully
promoted the supremacy of the 'central command' over the individual
states' soverignty.
This is right in the face of both our original Articles of Confederation
and the Constitution as is was signed onto by those 56 brave ones.
They saw the danger of an overreaching central power over the states,
and it finally came to a head. The South fought to preserve States Rights
and the Tenth AM; with Lincoln and the North aimed to get US all into the
Corporation. The Act of 1867 cemented everything together, and we
all be slaves on the Fed plantation. Now.

I hate to think how far we've come, and slid away from in just my lifetime:
but all these FEMA Region maps aren't all that far off the mark, when you
can almost see the same breakdown of the regions into indigenous political
ideology zones-- whether we intended it or not. Go Jefferson -- I think?
Cascadia looks cool but I'm more of a censervative libertardian...
"...maybe an actorr." Joe Pantoliano. Chomp but pray for a peaceful res.

PS The federal government in my opinion having reneged on the original
social contract with the states, by simple example, renders secession lawful.
I'm no historian nor am I Dennis, usually wrong at this keyboard: besides my
spell checker's on sick leave. But it's my HO and I'm reloading it when needed.

originally posted by: retiredTxn
a reply to: Metallicus

Whether the Authoritarians in Washington DC will allow the states to secede is another question, but I for one look forward to seeing the U.S. break up and split into smaller, self-governing regions.

This is a major part of the problem. Over the years, the States have ceded their power to the federal government, not retaining the power as it was intended. The fed's have grown into a monstrosity that controls our entire lives. We let that happen.

If you disagree, look at the current Syrian refugee debacle. Governor's and state Legislatures can scream they will not take any refugees in their state's, but most likely the fed's will win. How is that? The fed's have too much power.

The "authoritarians" in D.C. should have no say in whether a state or multiple states decide to leave the union. That decision should be up to the state's.

Amen, retired one... the authoritarians want another war so they can pour
on the cement overshoes all over us again. But this time would probably be
global. As it is now financially we're already uncomfortably close to being as
poor as the rest of the world-- and a large percentage of us unaware of the
cause. That's a bad recipe for being able to break away at all, at the extreme
violently... worst case. If government is force like the General said, the poker
hand is already pulled out of a DC sleeve a long time ago.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I don't see it happening.

What I think *should* happen is a voluntary dissolution of the USA as we know it -- and create several countries out of what is now the USA. There would be maybe 5-8 countries based on region, loosely affiliated in the same way the EU is. Trade/currency and and defense treaties like NATO.

I think we'd see more responsive and responsible government that way. Someone in Florida wouldn't be telling someone in Alaska how to manage their wildlife. The needs of someone in NYC are not anywhere close to those of someone in rural Nebraska.

Lets have government work for the people it represents instead of trying to be a jack of all trades, an average of none. Let's face it, the USA is to sprawling and diverse to represent us all in a meaningful and responsive manner.

I could agree to that, especially if us Socialists got to pick an area in the South for our city-state, particularly with access to the ocean. I hate cold weather & it's hard to create a real hippie-driven socialist utopia without warm weather, beaches, and tropical fruit.

The breakup wouldn't have to be violent or negative. People could just agree to disagree & go their own ways. We could even have "special relationships" with our former countrymen's new countries. That way, socialists wouldn't have to worry about capitalists hindering our plans & capitalists wouldn't have to worry about socialists hindering their plans. Win-win, right?

This is exactly what I envision. You are a good human who honestly believes in his Socialist ideals, but that is not how I want to live. Why should we have to fight when we can just agree to go our separate ways in peace and not force our incompatible lifestyles on each other?

I agree. Just don't change your mind & invade us, ok? lol I'd rather not have to allocate our money towards too much defense spending. Unless it's defense against diseases and a possible Klingon invasion.

No worries, lol.

I am totally anti-war and I would just chill and live my life. I don't want to hurt anyone or take your stuff.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Metallicus

If there would exist a place where there are more freedoms and less government, I might be encouraged.

That's the dream, brother.

I do not think people are really thinking this through. Do the people who want this live in the same world that I do. If this ever happened. It would not happen peacefully. It would probably lead to decades of war between all the various factions. Then when we are weakened, outside forces would impose peace on us.

If you want to know how a Syrian refugee feels. Keep advocating for the breaking up of the Union. It would not end with everyone living happily ever after. Each new nation state living peacefully with its neighbors. It would just lead to perpetual war right on our doorstep. Instead of the perpetual war that is going on far away from us. Then whoever the new super power is can come in and redraw our borders and use our divisiveness to keep us at each others throats while they abuse our natural resources. Just like we do everywhere else.

This is the world we live in. Breaking us up into smaller weaker parts that are ideologically different, where each side hates the other. Will not magically lead to peace and prosperity. It will lead to ruin, death, and war. We would fight each other, and all the enemies we have made will want a piece of us. But yeah, that all sounds better, than having to deal with a few presidential terms with presidents we do not like.

Breaking up the United States into pieces is shortsighted. We have had student protests and riots before. We have had the left and the right disagree before. We have had the country go through the culture shock of having segments of the population accept people they do not like. What has kept us on top. Is that in the end we may bicker and fight among each other. But we are united and strong when it matters. Breaking us up will just make us all weak and bring war from far away places to our home.

But that is just my opinion. What do I know. Maybe it would be all rainbows and roses. Maybe the new super power, because divided we would not be able to keep super power status, won't act like we did. Maybe we won't end up in a multi sided civil war. Maybe history would not repeat itself. Maybe human nature will change.

a reply to: ketsuko

"If we can't start embracing the truth of live and let live, with a republican form of government (note: that NOT a political party), then it's what will have to happen or we will devolve into a tyranny in truth because one or another of the ideologies will seek to impose its values and views by force. Look at the colleges if you want a preview."

That's a very prescient comment. I could only add that based upon what we're seeing in the demise of the Colleges and University systems, "live and let live" is in the rear view mirror because one "ideology" (or movement, if you will) already smells total victory and will settle for nothing less. And they'll have that victory, but I suspect that it will be a rather hollow victory because the people they seek to dominate will simply slip away.

That "slipping away" is why I posit that secession will never happen because of another emerging and powerful set of demographic trends; one is that the people who might think about and advocate secession, their children are leaving and the second is that the Chinese will, in one or two generations, be the largest and probably dominant minority in a nation that will be a majority-minority country with no single dominant racial culture in the majority.

So really, "secession" is a moot point. Its already the case that the wealthiest segment of the US, the Fortune 500 Corporations, are leaving the US. What will be left is a burned out junkyard, kind of like..........Detroit.

Can you imagine if there were a Second American Civil War and neither side won? If we were to split into two countries (only two for sake of this post), one of those countries would become a libertarian safe haven and the other would become a huge welfare state (again, extremes for sake of this post only.)

Man, what a world that would be. The latter of my examples would surely collapse quickly. The former would be miraculous.

In the event we split into 3; West US, East US and Texas...sign me up for the Republic of Texas.

originally posted by: Excallibacca


In the event we split into 3; West US, East US and Texas...sign me up for the Republic of Texas.

What makes you think the Texans would want you?

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Excallibacca


In the event we split into 3; West US, East US and Texas...sign me up for the Republic of Texas.

What makes you think the Texans would want you?

Fair point, my friend. I'm laughing out loud at that one.

But in seriousness I align pretty well with the stereotypical Texan. And I went hunting there last year...it was gorgeous.

The only way to secede is to drift away, however long that takes.

Peaceful secession would follow Nullification by the States and the citizens of this and that.

Excerpt from When Nullification Works, and When It Doesn't - by Ryan McMaken

How Nullification Works

When nullification enjoys either the indifference or support of a sizable portion of the local population, and is based on encouraging government inaction, it tends to work.

And this, apparently, is what the left understands. They know that the feds can only do so much to enforce federal law on their own, without help from local government. Yes, the feds have their own federal agents, but federal police forces are actually quite small compared to state and local police forces (unless, of course, the feds call in the military.)

Nullification's limitations

The reverse, however, does not work as well. That is, if nullification consists of requiring an active role for state and local officials, follow-through is a problem. For example, if states attempted to nullify Roe vs. Wade, they would run into trouble, because that sort of nullification would consist of actively shutting down physicians and abortion clinics. That’s different than simply refusing to take action.

But even “do nothing” attempts at nullification remain on very shaky legal ground. According to modern interpretations of the Constitution, there is no legal provision for state and local officials (including state courts) to refuse to enforce laws that modern constitutional scholars claim are part of “the law of the land.” And if they so choose, federal officials can still selectively enforce the law using their own agents.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Inaction is the key. Kind of like leverage. It is a lot easier not to do something than to try to fight, remove, or control something.

originally posted by: Excallibacca

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Excallibacca


In the event we split into 3; West US, East US and Texas...sign me up for the Republic of Texas.

What makes you think the Texans would want you?

Fair point, my friend. I'm laughing out loud at that one.

But in seriousness I align pretty well with the stereotypical Texan. And I went hunting there last year...it was gorgeous.

And as a native Texan....first round is on me....btw only 1/3rd of Texans want to secede.