It's time to wake up!

a reply to: daskakik

So then, all discontent is formed by thoughts. Now I argue that it is possible to address the root issue of the discontent.
All thoughts/discontents arise from a personality structure called which we can call ego, sense of self or more conventionally, the personality structure. If there was no sense of self/personality/ego then there would be no discontent because it would have no place to arise from.

Agree?

originally posted by: Andy1144
So then, all discontent is formed by thoughts. Now I argue that it is possible to address the root issue of the discontent.

All thoughts/discontents arise from a personality structure called which we can call ego, sense of self or more conventionally, the personality structure. If there was no sense of self/personality/ego then there would be no discontent because it would have no place to arise from.

Agree?

You act like discontenment can be seperated from every other emotion.

I will get one step ahead of you and say that you have not proven that discontenment is bad. If you are discontent with something and that pushes you to address that issue then was that a bad thing?

a reply to: daskakik

Good point, now it is an issue with multiple variables, so let me try to reconcile my point.

Discontentment as I define it, means wishing this experience could be something then it could be now. For example, you experience physical pain, or emotional pain, and a thought about the sensation happens "I wish this could not be here" (this thought can cause more mental pain then without it and is unnecessary to function )
or thoughts like "If only this pain wasn't here, then I would be complete". So you see, discontentment is also expectation.

Now keep this in mind. One can still strive for a better experience. For example, you are being abused by someone physically or verbally. Being content does not mean doing nothing, or detaching yourself. It means fully accepting that whatever is happening now, is whatever is happening and could not be different. So even though you are content with this moment, you can still move in ways to have a better experience or avoid what is happening by moving to another area. So you can still address the issue through being content. Discontent is redundant.

Also, it depends on what you mean by discontent. The way you were using it is correct and I agree. But I explained two ways I mean it. One is a good thought of discontent, which basically means, "I will address this issue, all the while accepting my inevitable fate fully."
The bad form of discontent is rooted in the idea that this moment could have been different that it already is, so then thoughts of anguish arise, because this moment is not what one wanted it to be.

Yes, you can still think about "If I did this, then this would not happen" That thought is a useful way we can use our past to learn about the future, but the idea that one must reject and be negatively discontent with whatever is happening, is unnecessary and redundant.

Let's address these points slowly and not jump off into too many conclusions to early. I am all ears to listen. How is it so far?

So discontent as I defined it is unnecessary because it means not being content with what is happening, which is pointless. But one can still use thoughts in order to address the issues and use the past to not make the same mistakes in the future. So one form of discontent is redundant, the other not. It just depends how you use them.

So accepting the moment as it is, is better then pointlessly wishing it could have been different, and that "I could be complete if this wasn't happening". Just a few examples.

originally posted by: Andy1144
So you can still address the issue through being content. Discontent is redundant.

But it isn't necesarily bad.

Also, it depends on what you mean by discontent. The way you were using it is correct and I agree. But I explained two ways I mean it. One is a good thought of discontent, which basically means, "I will address this issue, all the while accepting my inevitable fate fully."
The bad form of discontent is rooted in the idea that this moment could have been different that it already is, so then thoughts of anguish arise, because this moment is not what one wanted it to be.

You are automatically attaching anguish to it when, that is not always the case.

Here is the thing, even when it is the case, that still doesn't make it bad.

a reply to: daskakik

You are automatically attaching anguish to it when, that is not always the case.

Here is the thing, even when it is the case, that still doesn't make it bad.

Well feeling content with this moment instead of feeling discontent is better right? Feeling positive self-empowering emotions is better then experiencing self-unworthy, suicidal emotions ect.

Anguish is one example I used that can be a bi-product of discontentment. So ofcourse everything I say won't be necessarily absolutely true or consistent.

But it isn't necesarily bad.

But we can still speak about better and less beneficial experiences. That is what I mean. But I think you mean that bad is just a concept which has been indoctrinated in us, there is truly nothing wrong with anything in a sense. Is this what you mean? Like bad is just a concept?

originally posted by: Andy1144
Well feeling content with this moment instead of feeling discontent is better right? Feeling positive self-empowering emotions is better then experiencing self-unworthy, suicidal emotions ect.

No, they are all just feelings.

There is nothing wrong or bad about being discontent, either type of discontent that you defined.

Anguish is one example I used that can be a bi-product of discontentment. So ofcourse everything I say won't be necessarily absolutely true or consistent.

I have no problem accepting the differences but that does not mean that they are differences in rightousness.

a reply to: daskakik

I don't know if you've read my edit, but what I think your saying is that "bad" is just a concept and there isn't inherently anything wrong with feeling more or less pain. Is this how you mean it? If so then I agree.
But as humans we can still say, it's better if I should go do x right now because if I don't z will happen and I'll then be in trouble. Just an example. But whatever the outcome then there is nothing wrong with it.

Also, please when you say "there is nothing bad", just support why you think so with a little bit more words, deal?

originally posted by: Andy1144
I don't know if you've read my edit, but what I think your saying is that "bad" is just a concept and there isn't inherently anything wrong with feeling more or less pain. Is this how you mean it? If so then I agree.

What I mean is that bad is a qualifier that you add to something after thinking and comparing it to something else.

It seems that that is the one thing that you are arguing against but you turn around and do it on a different level.

a reply to: daskakik

What I mean is that bad is a qualifier that you add to something after thinking and comparing it to something else.
It seems that that is the one thing that you are arguing against but you turn around and do it on a different level.

I agree with how bad is formed through comparison but I don't know what you mean by your second sentence.
There really isn't anything bad with anything. But one can still think "this is bad" when something dangerous is happening and leave the area. We can still use the word, although it's ultimately not true.
It does contradict how I say this. But what I mean is that it is better to have a better experience opposed to a worse one. Is there anything wrong with either ultimately? No.

Are we good?

Also, my request is when you give an answer, then always support it with the evidence. No more opinions.

And I never said that there was anything wrong with having a worse experience, you said that.

originally posted by: Andy1144
I agree with how bad is formed through comparison but I don't know what you mean by your second sentence.

Your claim was:

if suffering is defined as thoughts of discontent with what is being experienced, then the mental suffering was formed by a thought.

Comparing the experience to see if it is better or worse is falling back into thoughts and comparing, which sets you up to be discontent. Doesn't seem like you are really getting anywhere.

It does contradict how I say this. But what I mean is that it is better to have a better experience opposed to a worse one. Is there anything wrong with either ultimately? No.

Are we good?

It still seems like you are trying to have it both ways.

a reply to: daskakik

Comparing the experience to see if it is better or worse is falling back into thoughts and comparing, which sets you up to be discontent. Doesn't seem like you are really getting anywhere.

You can still compare past experienced to learn from them and strive to have a better experience without being discontent.
I clearly defined to ways of discontent, you only took one of them when I clearly explained both. Come on now.

One one level it is discontent to compare feelings because you can become discontent if you don't get what you want to experience.

On anther level, you can use your past experienced in order to find better ways then previous of experiencing your life while being content.

It still seems like you are trying to have it both ways.

Is this a mind game or what? I stated a sentence which contradicted but where both ideas can coexist without being a fallacy. So if this is what you call both ways, then yes.
I have to talk about both sides because both have their validity in their respective contexts.

originally posted by: Andy1144
You can still compare past experienced to learn from them and strive to have a better experience without being discontent.
I clearly defined to ways of discontent, you only took one of them when I clearly explained both. Come on now.

You can't have either without thinking and comparing so, you can't say, stop thinking and you will stop comparing and this will stop suffering of the bad discontent but you can still do it for the good discontent.

Is this a mind game or what? I stated a sentence which contradicted but where both ideas can coexist without being a fallacy. So if this is what you call both ways, then yes.

Just because you don't see or don't want to acknowledge the fallacy doesn't mean that it isn't there.

If you just focus on "Nothing is bad" then you wont ever find ways in which to have a better experience because according to you better automatically implies something is wrong. You only deal with one level, you wont ever find ways to make this better with that perspective in this discussion. You dont seem to accept the validity of the two different perspectives I keep on mentioning.

You can't have either without thinking and comparing so, you can't say, stop thinking and you will stop comparing and this will stop suffering of the bad discontent but you can still do it for the good discontent.

No you wont, but I didnt arive at that point yet. I never said stop thinking altogether, but only certain thoughts. So you keep certain thoughts which are useful and dont use the unecessary ones. Keep the good discontent ones and not use the bad discontent ones.

On one level there is nothing wrong with stabbing yourself personally, on a relative level its better you dont. Agree?

Just because you don't see or don't want to acknowledge the fallacy doesn't mean that it isn't there.

You claim it's a fallacy because you don't understand it.

a reply to: Andy1144

I said pages ago that DE sounded like self help, being positive and the like.

How is your description of keeping the good thoughts and disregarding the bad ones different?

ETA:

On one level there is nothing wrong with stabbing yourself personally, on a relative level its better you dont. Agree?

No.

You claim it's a fallacy because you don't understand it.

It's a fallacy regardless of my understanding of it or not.

a reply to: Andy1144

You went back to the "you don't want to see the two perspectives" excuse?

originally posted by: Andy1144
I never said stop thinking altogether, but only certain thoughts. So you keep certain thoughts which are useful and dont use the unecessary ones. Keep the good discontent ones and not use the bad discontent ones.

Which thoughts are allowed and which ones are not allowed?
Is it possible to keep a thought?

Who is choosing?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

No it is not possible, identification can be set aside by seeing the illusion, then functional non-identification thoughts can arise.