High school suspends coach for praying at games and Satanists make an appearance

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: chuck258

Sorry you're against religious freedom and want to keep kids from praying as they wish.

Thanks for being honest that you're only in favor of Christians getting special treatment.

Of course the coach is a) still working for the government, b) still on government property, c) still in a position of authority over the students, d) still leading by example, and e) still knowingly breaking the law.

Accommodating religious beliefs does not include forcing others to take part in them. Establishing means establishing.

The Constitution is in effect, five minutes before school events, after school events, during school events ... all the time.

Keeping Christians like you from trampling the Constitution underfoot and using the government as your proxy for inflicting your cult on others is not bashing.

Where exactly does it say that? It says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. So If the school is not making it mandatory, if the guy says its all voluntary, then he has the right to pray via the constitution. Clearly you just hate Christianity.

a reply to: Wardaddy454

Clearly I hate Christianity, because I disagree with your irrationality? Wow, no bias there.

Swing and a miss, what is this, four or five now for you?

Once more and you and I are done, as you're repeating the same argument that's been discredited over and over.

The Constitution requires two things of government in the US simultaneously:

1. The government will not establish a religion.
2. The government will not prohibit the free exercise of religion.

The coach is a representative of government in this case. He cannot lead, direct, engage in, or otherwise cause to be (establish) any form of religion while acting in the capacity of a representative of government, on government property, while in a government-employed role of authority over American children.

The only religious hate I've seen in this whole matter is the Christians at the game trying to keep the Satanists from freely expressing their religion. Now, notably, American citizens aren't under the same restrictions the government is, they were just rude, obnoxious and uncaring. One of two of them might technically be guilty of assault.

... and that's that, Daddy. Rave on about your Christian victimization and hatred for the Constitution.

This is pretty clearly a matter of insubordination on Coach Kennedy's part: the Superintendent sent a letter to him regarding his actions that are in direct conflict with established district board policy:

In the letter, Bremerton School District Superintendent Aaron Leavell cited a district board policy, which said, "As a matter of individual liberty, a student may of his/her own volition engage in private non-disruptive prayer at any time not in conflict with learning activities. School staff shall neither encourage nor discourage a student from engagement in non-disruptive oral or silent prayer or any other form of devotional activity."

Please note the reiteration of policy that students have their freedom to pray (as long as they aren't disrupting classes or events).

Further, Superintendent Leavell is not only following the Constitution ... but specific case law that deals with this very issue:

Leavell also cited two federal court rulings to support his case.

"Schools may not allow coaches to initiate, lead or supervise student prayer (Doe v. Duncanville Indep. Sch. Distr. 1995)" and that "schools may not even allow coaches to participate in or appear to endorse religious activity that is entirely student-initiated (Borden v. Sch. Dist. of the Township of East Brunswick 2008)," according to Leavell's letter.

Coach Kennedy is not only directly and willfully ignoring the policies of his school district, he is ignoring established US law and precedent (and he knows it.)

Religious freedom does not mean that a religious person gets to flaunt the laws of the land merely on a whim.

To me, this seems like another person going down the "Kim Davis Path to 15-Minutes of Fame," the more I learn about it.

Reference: ABC News

Fools

No where in the constitution does it say that praying on gov. property is not allowed.

That goes for any denomination that highlights the positive and not the negative.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Fools

No where in the constitution does it say that praying on gov. property is not allowed.

That goes for any denomination that highlights the positive and not the negative.

Any other personal interpretations you want to enforce on the rest of us?

The US Constitution is clear; the Washington state Constitution is clear; the case law in the matter is clear and the school district policy is clear.

In fact, here's what the Washington state Constitution says on the matter:

Section 11 - RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief and worship, shall be guaranteed to every individual, and no one shall be molested or disturbed in person or property on account of religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county's or public hospital district's hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror, in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned in any court of justice touching his religious belief to affect the weight of his testimony. [AMENDMENT 88, 1993 House Joint Resolution No. 4200, p 3062. Approved November 2, 1993.]

Italics mine.

You are mistaken. Simply, directly, obviously and repeatedly.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Fools

Prayers are said from the presidential podium all the time.

There is nothing in the constitution that says prayers can not be said on gov. property.

There were no founding fathers against prayer on gov. property.

This is all just fiction from a sick generation.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Fools

No where in the constitution does it say that praying on gov. property is not allowed.

That goes for any denomination that highlights the positive and not the negative.

Oh, and not for nothing, if you are a Christian, you might want to keep this in mind, in the future:

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NIV)

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66

Fools

Prayers are said from the presidential podium all the time.

There is nothing in the constitution that says prayers can not be said on gov. property.

There were no founding fathers against prayer on gov. property.

This is all just fiction from a sick generation.

You've been shown the US Constitution and had it explained to you, you've been shown the Washington Constitution that is exceptionally and explicitly clear on the matter, there is case law noted above which demonstrates that THIS SPECIFIC MATTER has been considered before and resolved as illegal, and the School District Policy has been linked.

You're wrong, the Coach is wrong, and that's all there is to it.

Separation of church and state must be understood to have limits and those limits must not infringe on the peoples rights.

You are conflating and posting states rights vs. the constitution.

This is in no way shape or form what the founders wanted or would tolerate.

Your view is toxic to the fate of the nation and by trying to please a handful of lost souls you seek to doom a nation away from the founding freedoms that made us great.

You do all this while pretending you are right and poking intellectual dishonest fun at anyone who questions your madness.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Separation of church and state must be understood to have limits and those limits must not infringe on the peoples rights.

Constitutional lawyers have fought their cases of Separation of Church and state in court.

You are being provided the results of those cases.

It's a done deal.

Unless, like the coach you want to file a lawsuit and see where it gets you.

If Christianity didn't keen forcing itself in to places it didn't belong then non of this would be necessary. Fat chance though, Christianity is nothing if not persistent. It adherents are always trying to slyly push it in to places it was never meant to be. If you call them on it, your persecuting them.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Apparently the only culture not allowed in school any more is Christian and American.
Everything else must be tolerated.

Wow, greatest ever literary work? Pull the other one. It's full of contradictions and muddled clap trap. There is no truth in that book. If it was actually the word of a deity I'm pretty sure it wouldn't need so much interpreting.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
everyone get a clue to what's going on here.....someone is really fighting the truth of the word given in the by far greatest literary work......which resides in a league of it's own.....none even comes close. Let's tell the truth here!!!
Hey, are we gonna tell the truth?

originally posted by: CB328
He seems like a nice guy, but he admitted that he doesn't know anything about the constitution, and it is clearly unconstitutional for school employees to lead prayers on school property during school events.

Yes, but it's ok to for them to lead this prayer? Because it is a prayer, look closely at the word "God"

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[post]originally posted by: deadeyedick

It's one thing to not allow prayer. It's another to not allow an organized prayer event. The 2nd option is obviously the case here and that type of thing can lead to favoritism of certain religious kids over others, plus folks that follow a different religion or belief system could feel left out (ie satanists). The prayer is allowed, it's just the whole thing where it is organized by the coach as an event. I believe that is why he was suspended. I don't mind letting folks pray if they really want to waste their breath, but when you organize a praying event as a group during a public school event you are asking for trouble. If that's what you want, then send your kids to religious school. Don't force non religious kids to have to listen to your BS.

Your view is toxic to the fate of the nation and by trying to please a handful of lost souls you seek to doom a nation away from the founding freedoms that made us great.

Yes, doom a nation because they don't allow organized prayer events in public school. How horrifying, that others shouldn't have to listen to your fantasies in a secular education system.. The founding fathers wanted all religions to be treated equally. If you have Christian prayer then you'd also have to have Islamic, Judaic, Hindu, and others, or it is not fair. To combat this, they introduced separation of church and state so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Just because there is a Christian majority doesn't mean they should have a monopoly over who prays to what god in a public school. Is it really THAT hard to keep your religion from being forced on others?

a reply to: Realtruth

1. Good point, "under God" should be removed from the Pledge as it was only added in 1954 catering to anti-Communist sentiment.

2. With your logic, if any presence of the word God creates a prayer, it needs to come off the money and Federal buildings as well.

a reply to: Barcs

If you look at the letter to Coach Kennedy that I linked above, the School Superintendent made it perfectly clear that it is the policy of the District that kids can pray anywhere anytime as long as it doesn't disrupt classes or events. (Because there's no reason a prayer should do so.).

... and let's be real for a moment, anyone can pray anywhere at any time (if they're not looking to grandstand and be seen for what they are doing). God does not require (at least, according to what Jesus said) any special place or ornamentation. In fact, Jesus suggested that prayer be done in private. (Matthew 6:6).

The Coach was suspended for insubordination and breaking policy rules ... both of which which he very clearly was guilty of.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Realtruth

1. Good point, "under God" should be removed from the Pledge as it was only added in 1954 catering to anti-Communist sentiment.

2. With your logic, if any presence of the word God creates a prayer, it needs to come off the money and Federal buildings as well.

No.

Money isn't a prayer. Buildings aren't prayers.

Prayer is a ritual.

prayer prer/ noun noun: prayer; plural noun: prayers a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

a reply to: Realtruth

According to your previous post, the presence of the word "God" in the Pledge makes it a prayer.

Prayer is an invocation to a deity. Is the Pledge directed to a deity, or is it a statement of personal committment.

Hint: It's called the Pledge OF ALLEGIANCE.

I don't disagree with you at all about disallowing the Pledge in schools, however. For a number of reasons.

Start a movement.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Realtruth

1. Good point, "under God" should be removed from the Pledge as it was only added in 1954 catering to anti-Communist sentiment.

2. With your logic, if any presence of the word God creates a prayer, it needs to come off the money and Federal buildings as well.

I think it should.

There's been lawsuits to remove God from the Pledge and money almost since before they were changed.

Neither should have God as part of them.