I don't understand evolution.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

i completely agree with you there. the genesis creation myth isn't even original. the writers of the genesis chapters adapted the earlier mesopotamian mythology to suit their belief in monotheism.

the persians, after their conquest of babylon in 538 BC, agreed to grant jerusalem a large measure of local autonomy within the empire, but required the local authorities to produce a single law code accepted by the entire community. composing the community were two powerful groups, the priestly families who controlled the temple, and the landowning families who made up the "elders". these two groups were in conflict over many issues, and that each had its own "history of origin", but the persian promise of greatly increased local autonomy for all provided a powerful incentive to cooperate in producing a single text.

thus the first major comprehensive draft of the "pentateuch" (the series of five books which begins with genesis and ends with deuteronomy) was composed in the late 7th or the 6th century bc by the "jahwist source". this was later expanded by other authors, "the priestly source", into a work very like the one we have today.

essentially, it was a work that attempted to unify and solidify the belief of the newly conquered babylon, and produce a single code of law that would be accepted by all, thereby granting more autonomy for jerusalem. the modern equivalent of such a work would probably be something like the declaration of independence in america.

it simply is no longer relevant to the level of understanding of the world we have now, over 2200 years later, or our modern society. it is not logical to hold the myth above everything else we have discovered and claim it is the irrefutable, perfect truth. belief in a supreme being or no, doesn't change historical facts.

i think i am out. i'm starting to get frustrated. if i see one more anti-evolution thread full of unscientific, babbling, paranoid conspiratorial rhetoric i swear i'll throw my laptop out the window and never come back..

wanna disprove evolution op? murgatroid? randy? jack? start here.

Evolution is largely driven by environment. The surroundings determine what adaptations should arise. Fish have fins because they are in water etc.

a reply to: Vasa Croe
a reply to: Freeborn

I am just wondering where your literal belief limits are and where science or folklore have to take over.

I believe in a supreme being. Doesn't that answer your questions?
I don't believe our lives are worthless fleeting little misnomers that
are just a space between two nothings. I don't believe that all of what
I see going on here on this planet everyday, isn't proceeding to prove
a point. The Bible tells us this is true and I can see it everyday in the
world, in the nations and peoples, in history and current events,
in you and even in myself. I see what it says perfectly happening
every gawd damn day.

Oh but I'm just supposed to fall in line and get behind
evolution because it's the cool thing to do? Some half baked
trumped up and thrown together back yard bullsh!t nonsensical
recipe of happenstance from nothing and up popped everything?
Clearly suggesting that all the magic can happen with out the magician?

That's just wacky!

The radioactive potassium-argon dating method has been demonstrated to fail on 1949, 1954, and 1975 lava flows at Mt Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, in spite of the quality of the laboratory’s K–Ar analytical work. Argon gas, brought up from deep inside the earth within the molten rock, was already present in the lavas when they cooled. We know the true ages of the rocks because they were observed to form less than 50 years ago. Yet they yield ‘ages’ up to 3.5 million years which...
AUTHOR: Andrew Snelling, PhD in Geology

Source

You will be greatly disappointed (by the forthcoming book); it will be grievously too hypothetical. It will very likely be of no other service than collecting some facts; though I myself think I see my way approximately on the origin of the species. But, alas, how frequent, how almost universal it is in an author to persuade himself of the truth of his own dogmas.’...
AUTHOR: Charles Darwin

Evolution has nothing at all to do with where life came from initially. Any good scientist will tell you they don't know that.

But you know how humans breed dogs, cats or rabbits for different characteristics? Evolution is just like that only the selection is naturally occurring, not human controlled/artificial. Due to the fact the world is hard to live in, some creatures will die, and the breeders are the survivors. They pass their survival ability on to their children.

Look how different a pomeranian is from an irish wolfhound. We did that. And they can still breed. So it is clearly possible to select for characteristics. Therefore it is impossible that the world does not also influence populations by simply being hard to survive in. God could have created humans wholesale, but they would still evolve and change. It can't be avoided because we live on earth in time, we each have unique abilities, it's possible we can die before breeding, and we pass our dna if we succeed in having children.

Peace.

a reply to: randyvs

Like I said, to each their own. I am simply asking questions.

So, how are we seeing light from stars millions of light years away? "God said let there be light" I am guessing? I mean we have a measure, scientifically, of the speed of light and we know how far these stars are away from earth, so just wondering how this is possible? Magic again?

It occurs to me the word "selection" could be confusing to someone who did not understand evolution. In evolutionary theory the word selection is abstract. Nothing is actively selecting anything the way a human selects and breeds a dog for being cute or useful. Being "selected" is simply a euphemism for being able to survive and breed in the world. It is just a new use for an existing word in order to help describe a new concept.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: randyvs

Like I said, to each their own. I am simply asking questions.

So, how are we seeing light from stars millions of light years away? "God said let there be light" I am guessing? I mean we have a measure, scientifically, of the speed of light and we know how far these stars are away from earth, so just wondering how this is possible? Magic again?

Either you are seeing the light from a relatively bright individual star that is close-by in astronomical terms, or you are seeing the light from large clusters of stars or galaxies that are far enough away that they seem like a dot to you. Light travels in all directions from the source in way that can be imagined like an ever growing sphere. A light wave will travel forever in a vacuum. So if the source is bright enough you can see it with your human eyes.

There can be no reconciliation between God and evolution! Why?

Because all evolution is just an extension of what went on
in " The Garden " between " Satan and Man ". Ring any
bells? Or do I have to take ya baby to the movie? Do ya
really need to see the show?

Man trying to fulfill an ancient promise that Satan made.
Right up to this day. That's our lysergic reality that has been
distorted by time. My eyes are open and I can see exactly what's
going on by the word of God. I never thought I could be so convinced
of anything but truly from what I'm seeing? I'd have to be a lop
to give up The Bible for evolution. And even worse to believe
they can co-exist.

To detect the earth’s magnetic field, loggerhead turtles must have some sort of magnetic sensor—thus, by Haldane’s criterion, proving evolution false (Keim, 2011). ...
AUTHOR: David Catchpoole received his B.Ag.Sc. (Hons) from the University of Adelaide and a Ph.D. from the University of New England (New South Wales).

Source

“Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions. Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.”...
AUTHOR: Geoffrey R. Burbidge

“The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible in probability in the same way that a perpetual machine is in probability. The extremely small probabilities calculated in this chapter are not discouraging to true believers … [however] A practical person must conclude that life didn’t happen by chance.”...
AUTHOR: Hubert Yockey

originally posted by: randyvs
Don't try to tell me that my belief in a deity is immature in the face of
a pseudoscience that has existed for what? A hundred and eighty years?
Woop de ####en doo! A lie that also just happens to make your life
far less complicated and more comfy for precious little you.

Don't try to tell me that I believe in Christ because I fear death! Not when
it takes far more guts and nuts to believe there is a supreme being. Whom
I will have to answer to, when the inevitable day comes.

What do you mean by making life more comfy? Are you talking about medicines and stuff? I don't think anyone chooses to believe in evolution to get those kind of benefits, it's not like your doctor is going to ask about you beliefs. But maybe you are talking about atheism instead of evolution here? Who knows?

The idea that it is harder to believe in God than to be an atheist shows stunning arrogance. Why would anyone choose not to believe when a God existing would be so beneficial? It is much harder to face a seemingly meaningless cosmos thinking that it all depends on you, or just chance. Show some respect.

FYI, I'm not an atheist. Just keepin' it real.

a reply to: randyvs

I truly saddens me that there are still people like you still left in the world.

If science decided to pack it in and call it a day, I could only imagine how the world "devolve" under your fairy tale mythology system of knowledge.

No more medicines or medical advances to cure the sick, no more communications across the globe to bring people together, no more new materials or compounds to build new machines we rely on every day; no more advancements in human knowledge.

Your ignorance and fear of the unknown keeps you believing in your fairy tale being in the sky. That's really, truly sad.

Science isn't perfect - it's can admit its wrong and learn from that failure. But that's where it excels; admitting it is not perfect and can be improved. It doesn't know everything and readily admits it, which is what we humans want -- knowledge, answers and a sense of adventure in that process of discover and achievement. I'm glad I am human because of that experience of learning new things.

Your God is the antithesis of that entire idea. And that's terrible.

Let's see your God accomplish even ONE of the tasks that science provides every single second of every single day on this planet.

originally posted by: randyvs
There can be no reconciliation between God and evolution! Why?

Because all evolution is just an extension of what went on
in " The Garden " between " Satan and Man ". Ring any
bells? Or do I have to take ya baby to the movie? Do ya
really need to see the show?

There is no dispute between God and evolution. Why?

Because a literal interpretation of the mythology in the bible is not the only way to understand God. What happenned in "The Garden" between "Satan and Man" never literally happened. The story is an allegory for man choosing to transition from a spiritual non-materialistic existence (immortality) to a physical existence (mortality). Whether "the serpent" was actually satan or not is up for debate, in Hebrew the word Seraphim means both fiery serpent or Angel. Do you see how a story can be an allegory and not necessary literal? or do i have to take you to a film? why are you being so condecending?

Man trying to fulfill an ancient promise that Satan made.
Right up to this day. That's our lysergic reality that has been
distorted by time. My eyes are open and I can see exactly what's
going on by the word of God. I never thought I could be so convinced
of anything but truly from what I'm seeing? I'd have to be a lop
to give up The Bible for evolution. And even worse to believe
they can co-exist.

What promise did satan make to man again? What about God's promise to man? Jesus' promise? Were any of these so-called promises actually ever made to man? Can we realisticly expect any of them to be fulfilled?

You don't have to give up the bible in order to understand science and evolution. You just have to alter your interpretation of what the bible is actually saying and put it in to context with the period of time it was written and who and what it was written for. Accepting evolution does not displease God, it does not further Satan's devious plans. If Satan even really exists at all. There is no reason belief in the bible and an understanding of evolution can't coexist.

To detect the earth’s magnetic field, loggerhead turtles must have some sort of magnetic sensor—thus, by Haldane’s criterion, proving evolution false (Keim, 2011). ...
AUTHOR: David Catchpoole received his B.Ag.Sc. (Hons) from the University of Adelaide and a Ph.D. from the University of New England (New South Wales).


Source

Fulfilling Haldane's critereon alone does not disprove evolution, and the myriad organisms with magnetoreception, (including
bacteria, athropods, molluscs, and birds, and possibly even humans), are not examples of Haldrane's critereon.

“Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions. Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.”...
AUTHOR: Geoffrey R. Burbidge

This is ridiculous, there is clear evidence of the big bang. we can clearly observe the background radiation this expansion produced, measure it and quantify it.

“The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible in probability in the same way that a perpetual machine is in probability. The extremely small probabilities calculated in this chapter are not discouraging to true believers … [however] A practical person must conclude that life didn’t happen by chance.”...
AUTHOR: Hubert Yockey

All this says about life is that it did not really occur by chance. I like the way you have quote mined this physicist to make it look as though we supports creationism. In context, he is in fact talking about the purpose of the universe being to create life. Again this has nothing to do with evolution.

EvolutionTheLie.com is not a reputable source for any kind of scientific information. It is an anti-evolution propaganda site presenting complete horseradish.

David Catchpoole is a former plant physiologist who renounced a life of scientific pursuit to take up a life preaching and writing for Creationist Ministries International. You quoted him misunderstanding Haldane's criterion. Not surprising considering that according to the creationist wiki: "Like most scientists today, David Catchpoole was an evolutionist when he started out, and did not believe in God. When he was in his mid-20's, he went on a trip to Indonesia, where a personal crisis, and typhoid fever, brought him to know the Lord. At that time in his life, he remembered the words of some Christian university students, who had told him to cry out to God if he ever faced a crisis. So he said ‘God, it sounds strange even saying your name, because I’m not sure you even exist. But if you can hear me and get me out of this mess, I’ll be a Christian for the rest of my days.’ Apparently God heard his plea and David got out of his mess, and became a Christian. After David became a Christian, he still believed the universe was billions of years old, until he heard a seminar from Dr. Don Batten and Dr. Carl Wieland in 1997. What David didn’t realize is that a lot of speculation goes into what scientists cannot test or observe, which is the distant past."

Geoffrey R. Burbidge developed an alternative cosmology "quasi-steady state theory". While this theory contradicts the Big Bang Theory, (why you quoted him i'd say) it also contradicts the creation story in the bible. It does not contradict the theory of evolution. The quasi-steady state theory has no observational evidence to support it and is more or less discredited.

At least you have started trying to be scientific, but unfortunately only by quote mining scientists, and one former scientist. If you want to make a more serious argument against evolution, show us where the scientific findings that support it are wrong. Please do not post any more rubbish from sites like EvolutionTheLie.com, if you want to be taken seriously.

a reply to: noonebutme

Science is just the study of the mechanics God uses to
make everything work. I thought I made it pretty clear
in the OP I have no problem with science. But what about
transhumanism and other abominable attempts at becoming
God like. What if I choose to see it this way? Learning the
mechanics of the automobile doesn't negate the designer or
the manufacturer. Science seems stuck on this stupid idea
that just because men can find out how things work, they can
then take credit for it. You can tell me all day long how the sun
works. But lets see you create one and set it out there in
space with out ruining the entire universe like the jerk man
is most of the time. I think somebody was capable of doing all
this. You seem to think I need to be exterminated for it. Well
keep try'n to be God, maybe you'll get your way.



And if my God, as you put it, is my God? Then he's your God to and
you have nothing to say about it.

originally posted by: randyvs
Science is just the study of the mechanics God uses to
make everything work.

No, because your God is made up and not real. Physics and the properties of matter are nothing to do with fairy tales. They are observable, testable and those results are reproducible.

Your God is none of those qualities.

But what about
transhumanism and other abominable attempts at becoming
God like. What if I choose to see it this way?

Then that's your choice of view, I have no issue with that. So long as people like you do NOT get into a position of power which then dictate to the rest of the free thinking world on what should or should not "be". Your outdated religious beliefs do not represent all of society and if you choose to live in a cave, so be it. Stay in there and don't come out.

Science seems stuck on this stupid idea
that just because men can find out how things work, they can
then take credit for it.

Ah. So because your God created it, we have a patent-issue?? Ok - let your God argue it in a court if law if he's so bothered by it.

You can tell me all day long how the sun
works. But lets see you create one and set it out there in
space with out ruining the entire universe like the jerk man
is most of the time. I think somebody was capable of doing all
this.

You are really reaching at the ridiculous now... Your arguments are those of a 5 year old with his fingers in his ears yelling, "NO-NO-NO!" when he is told the Easter Bunny doesn't exist.

You seem to think I need to be exterminated for it.

And if my God, as you put it, is my God? Then he's your God to and you have nothing to say about it.

No, he isn't. I do not believe in fairy tales like God or Jesus or virgin births. You see, I went to school and had an education. I don't live in a cave, scared of the world around me. I embrace the unknown. I don't run from it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: noonebutme
You can tell me all day long how the sun
works. But lets see you create one and set it out there in
space with out ruining the entire universe like the jerk man
is most of the time.

Couple things here:

* Have you seen God do it? (Got to love Ken Ham's stupid argument )
* What about other source of light God suposedly created that turn out not to be source of light, but rather reflection - doesn't that prove that those writing bible had no idea what they are talking about?
* Seems that you think that universe is ' tuned', and your argument would work fine if there are not meteorites, (super) novas and everything has life span, including earth, sun, our solar system as well our galaxy...

So, let's see what evidence you have your God created Sun, where we HAVE evidence that story you refer is actually fabricated by people who just did not know anything about astronomy.

It still silly to think that people believe in those bronze age myths, but I guess no different then Greek belief that Zeus is @ Mount Olympus or that Athena was born out of her mom's head, that Jesus walked on water or that he could turn water into wine or that big wolf ate Red Riding Hood and her grandma, and later hunter released them after killing wolf or surviving inside whale belly...

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: noonebutme

And if my God, as you put it, is my God? Then he's your God to and
you have nothing to say about it.

Ahhh...the sweet, narrow minded ignorance of religion comes out to bare its teeth. Unfortunately religion does not teach us the proper use of the word "too". Does your god forgive misspelling?

So your god is the ONLY one that is real? What about all the other people in the world that believe in other gods? Are they all wrong? Are all other religions wrong? I knew weird fundamentalists that had the same views as you a while back. They wouldn't allow their kids to watch things like Harry Potter and had to read the bible nightly and blah blah blah.....what I am getting at is that this is called brain washing. Kids are the most impressionable and this is how people like the Duggars come to be, but I guess you don't really see anything wrong with them? Or are Baptists not considered real Christians in your eyes? I mean, where DO you draw the line?

I would also like to know your thoughts on if the Solar System is geo or helio centric? Plenty of non-believers were killed a long time ago for not believing in the geocentric model because there were bible passages that did not fit with that way of thinking. So has the belief changed or has the bible been re-written or re-interpreted to now fit the heliocentric model? If so, who re-interpreted it or re-wrote it? Surely it was not your god as we would have heard about him coming down to earth to tell us all we were wrong in our interpretation and he had to send a newly released version back to the printers.

So...helio or geo? Which do you believe? Does the fight between science and religion heat up over these things because science always wins? Or is it just that religious nuts are hard headed? Or was the bible interpreted wrong in the first place and has since been rectified? How many other things are wrong in the bible then? Or is it NOW correct and never needs to be re-interpreted?

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

I would also like to know your thoughts on if the Solar System is geo or helio centric?

Trick question. It is Augustus-centric. But you knew that already.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

I would also like to know your thoughts on if the Solar System is geo or helio centric?

Trick question. It is Augustus-centric. But you knew that already.

I think a new avatar is in order......

a reply to: Vasa Croe

I bet my money on bad/wrong translation.

Didn't Dr. Tyson note that every truth in science has to go through 3 phases??

“Every great scientific truth goes through three phases. First, people deny it. Second, they say it conflicts with the Bible. Third, they say they’ve known it all along.”
—Neil Degrasse Tyson

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Ahhh...the sweet, narrow minded ignorance of religion comes out to bare its teeth. Unfortunately religion does not teach us the proper use of the word "too". Does your god forgive misspelling?

Damn it, I had it right the first time. I was tired Okay and in hurry.
Nothing gets bayou does it? Pretty childish and weak attack really.
But if you think that makes you better than me I can make a few more
mistakes for ya.