As it was in the beginning...

a reply to: Marduk

You know there are no recorded Sumerian astrological omens it seems to have been a Semitic thing, even the practise of haruspicy was limited to suitability to enter the En Priesthood, each candidate presented a sheep and if blemish or deformation was present on the liver that excluded entry, it wasn't used to foretell the future it simply determined the future of candidates.

I think it would have been the case for the Sumerians that the future was written in the Heavens in terms of the astral narrative, the story written on the tablet of Nisaba and also importantly the past.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

You know there are no recorded Sumerian astrological omens it seems to have been a Semitic thing, even the practise of haruspicy was limited to suitability to enter the En Priesthood,

probably time you update what you think you know about that
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Marduk

I was referring to that being the only recorded Sumerian practise of haruspicy, links to Assyrian and Babylonian practise are unlikely to change my opinion on that...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

I was referring to that being the only recorded Sumerian practise of haruspicy, links to Assyrian and Babylonian practise are unlikely to change my opinion on that...

that is not what you said
you claimed that
astrological omen telling = semitic
Haruspicy = only for entering priesthood

you were completely wrong on both counts as my links prove

If you actually took the time to read more than the first sentence in each you'd see that.
for instance

The bārûtu's extant predecessors date back to Old Babylonian times with the liver models from Mari and where the order of the exta were largely fixed... These were the accumulation of a millennium and a half of observations of political, social and private events and the divinatory signs that accompanied them

so, not just for entering the priesthood then

a reply to: Marduk

Yes the first evidence for astrological omens is Akkadian/Semitic and the evidence for Sumerian practise of haruspicy is only known with regards to the offering of the unblemished lamb for En Priesthood candidates, the statement that practises of Semitic Mari dated back to the Old Babylonian period is fine, but that's Amorite practise not Sumerian.

a reply to: Marduk

Wikipedia cant be used as a base for information

originally posted by: Hyperia
a reply to: Marduk

Wikipedia cant be used as a base for information

Err, ok, so why not follow the links in the Wikipedia text to academic sources, I use Wikipedia because its freely available. If you'd prefer I use sources from my bookshelf, or websites hidden behind university pay walls just let me know

Kantzveldt I have already shown you to be wrong with your original claim. I am not going to continue to prove you wrong as you move the goalposts to save your ego

You understand this
Sumerian
adjective: Sumerian
1. relating to Sumer, its ancient language, or the element it contributed to Babylonian civilization.

You use Sumerian as a general term all the time, yet suddenly you think getting specific will mean you aren't still wrong. That's pretty poor

Sumerian literature is the literature written in the Sumerian language during the Middle Bronze Age. Most Sumerian literature is preserved indirectly, via Assyrian or Babylonian copies.

a reply to: Hyperia

Sure it can. All you have to do is read all the way to the bottom of the article and lick on "references" and follow the citations to read the source material the article is based on. Due diligence wins every time.

a reply to: Marduk

I beg to differ with you on this point because as I understand it astrology was and still is for some a way of life - people looked at the cosmos against which the zodiac is placed and took their lead from where they saw their Gods and omens.
The fact the zodiac was used all around the world with different animals in place for different countries etc and was laid out against the backcloth of the sky and constellations can't be denied or separated.

www.sacred-texts.com...

a reply to: Marduk

I was holding you to your own standards that's all and you're right i'm not normally so picky, but it is still important to recognize that there is no evidence for astrological omens or predicting the future through haruspicy from the Sumerians themselves, if they wanted answers to troubling questions their preferred method was dream incubation.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: Marduk

I beg to differ with you on this point because as I understand it astrology was and still is for some a way of life - people looked at the cosmos against which the zodiac is placed and took their lead from where they saw their Gods and omens.
The fact the zodiac was used all around the world with different animals in place for different countries etc and was laid out against the backcloth of the sky and constellations can't be denied or separated.

www.sacred-texts.com...

I think you've misunderstood the distinction
"zodiac," from Greek zodiakos, means "literally "circle of little animals,"
The Greeks got the idea that the sun circles the signs from the MUL.APIN
Before that, the signs were not used as a zodiac at all.
without understanding the circle you don't understand precession
its that simple
your link supports my view, which is the academic one, not yours

The Greeks, and later other peoples influenced by their culture, divided the band of the zodiac into twelve sections

Here is some more information with all of the details

Though there is still-controversial evidence that Aristarchus of Samos possessed distinct values for the sidereal and tropical years as early as c. 280 BC the discovery of precession usually is attributed to Hipparchus (190–120 BC) of Rhodes or Nicaea, a Greek astronomer. According to Ptolemy's Almagest, Hipparchus measured the longitude of Spica and other bright stars. Comparing his measurements with data from his predecessors, Timocharis (320–260 BC) and Aristillus (~280 BC), he concluded that Spica had moved 2° relative to the autumnal equinox. He also compared the lengths of the tropical year (the time it takes the Sun to return to an equinox) and the sidereal year (the time it takes the Sun to return to a fixed star), and found a slight discrepancy. Hipparchus concluded that the equinoxes were moving ("precessing") through the zodiac, and that the rate of precession was not less than 1° in a century, in other words, completing a full cycle in no more than 36000 years.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Marduk

many of the biblical figures name spellings have variants and some are actually titles, not their birth names. for example, baal and bel are the same word

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Marduk

many of the biblical figures name spellings have variants and some are actually titles, not their birth names. for example, baal and bel are the same word

That does not support your contention either.
The variants only exist because of regional differences in pronunciation.
Bel and Baal are not even names, they are titles "Lord"
you are not a linguist.

why don't you start your own thread which I can then ignore rather than hijacking others with unsupported beliefs

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Marduk

many of the biblical figures name spellings have variants and some are actually titles, not their birth names. for example, baal and bel are the same word

That does not support your contention either.
The variants only exist because of regional differences in pronunciation.
Bel and Baal are not even names, they are titles "Lord"
you are not a linguist.

why don't you start your own thread which I can then ignore rather than hijacking others with unsupported beliefs

notice i said, some are actually titles? why you tilting windmills?

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
e Sumerians themselves, if they wanted answers to troubling questions their preferred method was dream incubation.

interesting.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Hyperia

Sure it can. All you have to do is read all the way to the bottom of the article and lick on "references" and follow the citations to read the source material the article is based on. Due diligence wins every time.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Maybe there is a hidden door somewhere that only can be seen an opened by a bloodborn?

Just working the imagination

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

I was holding you to your own standards that's all and you're right i'm not normally so picky, but it is still important to recognize that there is no evidence for astrological omens or predicting the future through haruspicy from the Sumerians themselves, if they wanted answers to troubling questions their preferred method was dream incubation.

No, like all other peoples, they practiced a variety of divination methods depending upon need at any given time, oneiromancy was just one of those methods, but had particular significance in relation to rule hence it is preserved more solidly in the record. Oneiromancy was bestowed by Nanshe, and her priests wore the multi-coloured robes associated with the power of receiving, and reading, prophetic visions, as they do in cultures stretching across the globe. In the Maya hierarchy of colours, "multi" is the apex, just as it was for the Sumerians, that's because, as a skill, it emerged in the Paleolithic.

It's not enough to just taste the rainbow...you have to swallow.

a reply to: Anaana

You're entitled to your assumptions but that conversation you quote from was with regards to actual textual evidence regarding Sumerian methods of Divination, and like i said for that there is only dream incubation, but no matter.

There is a fragmentary text that is relating Nisaba to an oracle, but she was closely related to Nanse often seen as a sister and sometimes as in her service;

Nance also inspects the servants during the appointments.

Her chief scribe Nisaba places the precious tablets on her knees and takes a golden stylus in her hand.

She arranges the servants in single file for Nance …”

“That sister of mine, the holy Nisaba, has taken for herself the measuring rod,has fastened the lapis lazuli line (?) on her arm,proclaims all the great me’s,

Fixes the borders, marks off the boundaries –has become the scribe of the Land.

Nisaba, the lady …… who creates (?) life ……, the book-keeper ……,the wise one, the holy woman ……,…… the oracle, has placed his (?) name on the tablet of life…”

The greater implications of this is that Nisaba as Virgo and knowing the innermost secrets of numbers is the primary regulator of any reckoning of cycles and ages, of the boundaries and laws, and has the entire schemata set out on her tablet for consultation, Nisaba calls time.

She is closest to Nanse the provider and interpreter of dreams and oracles, in the greater sense the entire narrative of the Heavens can be seen as such, an oracle set in the stars, as a dream, that not only needs to be incubated but hatched.

I mean i know where you're coming from with all the technicolour and the Hebrews ripping off the cult of Nanse in terms of the Joseph narrative, she also ran store houses for the provision of the needy, but all said and done it's a case of Praise be to Nisaba...the rainbow Goddess was Inanna by the way, the Abgal Priests of Nanse dressed as fish.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Anaana

You're entitled to your assumptions but that conversation you quote from was with regards to actual textual evidence regarding Sumerian methods of Divination, and like i said for that there is only dream incubation, but no matter.

I had been following the conversation, I enjoy Marduk's well-informed posts, he is clearly well-read and not simply an under employed desk jockey with only the internet to derive ideas from.

So...what is dream incubation? Take this one, for example...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

...I particularly enjoyed that one, it's a good job I do my pelvic floor exercises, I can tell you. How can you demonstrate this "incubation" from that dream?

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
I mean i know where you're coming from ...

Nope, you haven't a clue...but don't you trouble your pretty little head about it, I'll let you get back to playing with the vulva