A new low in science: Criminalizing climate change skeptics

a reply to: mobiusmale

So where is the letter that these scientists sent? All you have brought to this thread is a biased article telling us what this letter says and what we should think about it.

Oddly enough, the letter seems to have been scrubbed from the interwebs. I can't find it. Every link i have followed is blank.

Another step in the direction of if you don't agree with the government you shut up about it or go to jail.

originally posted by: PLAYERONE01
Yes, it's quite insane isnt it. the more and more i see story's like this unfold i have to ask myself the question.
Maybe the earth was settled just the way Douglass Adams described it in "Restaurant at the end of the universe".

Ugh I just have to stop you there. The planet wasn't settled by the payphone cleaners . They died out . So did everyone from ark b. The proto humans arthur was teaching scrabble to are our descendants.

Please never post a comment about a book unless you can back it up

On topic . Both sides are liars for profit

Put them on an ark

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: mobiusmale
It's Copernicus all over again.

The establishment line on creation was set.

The same thing is being attempted here with AGW...any dissenting voice is heresy. Very familiar isn't it? 

"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you're not allowed to criticize."

-Voltaire

It used to be questioning religion was illegal. Now that we are more 'enlightened' it is questioning the scientific community. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
So those for the climate agenda are criminal for denying the study of the science against scientific research and those against man made climate change are criminals and corrupt because they are opposing the climate change agenda
This foretells or even confirms the death of science, turning it into nothing more than a faith based assumption, based on what the individual scientists agenda is

Pity to those who believe in scientists and now science, evidently?

Science is fine--it's the scientists that are the problem, as they are the ones corrupting data and creating panic off of flawed predictions made by faulty computer models.

It's like lead; lead can be used to create a bullet that can kill, or a fishing weight that can aid in feeding a family. It's what the human element in the equation does with it that matters, and right now, AGW science is being molded and shaped into something that is threatening and destructive instead of into a tool to help, assuming that there even needs to be any help, other than reminding us to be better stewards of the environment.

originally posted by: M4nWithNoN4me

"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you're not allowed to criticize."

-Voltaire

And before any of the AGW/ACC Attack dogs jump on me- no, I'm actually NOT suggesting that a bunch of academic climate scientists rule over us with an iron fist. But rather that the huge corporate entities that decide which universities, groups and individuals get the research and grant money do, and then there's government, that clearly states right up front its purpose, to control the peoples' minds (govern=control, ment=mind).

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

Science is fine--it's the scientists that are the problem, as they are the ones corrupting data and creating panic off of flawed predictions made by faulty computer models.

It's like lead; lead can be used to create a bullet that can kill, or a fishing weight that can aid in feeding a family. It's what the human element in the equation does with it that matters, and right now, AGW science is being molded and shaped into something that is threatening and destructive instead of into a tool to help, assuming that there even needs to be any help, other than reminding us to be better stewards of the environment.

No
No it's not, science in interpreted by people, it's becoming a religion

This proves it

Denying the rights of an opinion, denying free speech, denying research, manipulating authority to achieve an outcome

Humanity has poisoned science

Guess you are a true believer, keep your faith

Here is your proof right in front of you, believe what you want

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: mobiusmale

So where is the letter that these scientists sent? All you have brought to this thread is a biased article telling us what this letter says and what we should think about it.

Oddly enough, the letter seems to have been scrubbed from the interwebs. I can't find it. Every link i have followed is blank.

Here, apparently, is the text of the letter sent to Obama:

September 1, 2015
Dear President Obama, Attorney General Lynch, and OSTP Director Holdren,

As you know, an overwhelming majority of climate scientists are convinced about the potentially serious adverse effects of human-induced climate change on human health, agriculture, and biodiversity. We applaud your efforts to regulate emissions and the other steps you are taking. Nonetheless, as climate scientists we are exceedingly concerned that America’s response to climate change – indeed, the world’s response to climate change – is insufficient. The risks posed by climate change, including increasing extreme weather events, rising sea levels, and increasing ocean acidity – and potential strategies for addressing them – are detailed in the Third National Climate Assessment (2014), Climate Change Impacts in the United States. The stability of the Earth’s climate over the past ten thousand years contributed to the growth of agriculture and therefore, a thriving human civilization. We are now at high risk of seriously destabilizing the Earth’s climate and irreparably harming people around the world, especially the world’s poorest people.

We appreciate that you are making aggressive and imaginative use of the limited tools available to you in the face of a recalcitrant Congress. One additional tool – recently proposed by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse – is a RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) investigation of corporations and other organizations that have knowingly deceived the American people about the risks of climate change, as a means to forestall America’s response to climate change. The actions of these organizations have been extensively documented in peerreviewed academic research (Brulle, 2013) and in recent books including: Doubt is their Product (Michaels, 2008), Climate Cover-Up (Hoggan & Littlemore, 2009), Merchants of Doubt (Oreskes & Conway, 2010), The Climate War (Pooley, 2010), and in The Climate Deception Dossiers (Union of Concerned Scientists, 2015). We strongly endorse Senator Whitehouse’s call for a RICO investigation.

The methods of these organizations are quite similar to those used earlier by the tobacco industry. A RICO investigation (1999 to 2006) played an important role in stopping the tobacco industry from continuing to deceive the American people about the dangers of smoking. If corporations in the fossil fuel industry and their supporters are guilty of the misdeeds that have been documented in books and journal articles, it is imperative that these misdeeds be stopped as soon as possible so that America and the world can get on with the critically important business of finding effective ways to restabilize the Earth’s climate, before even more lasting damage is done.

Sincerely,

Jagadish Shukla, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Edward Maibach, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Paul Dirmeyer, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Barry Klinger, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Paul Schopf, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
David Straus, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Edward Sarachik, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Michael Wallace, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Alan Robock, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ
Eugenia Kalnay, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
William Lau, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Kevin Trenberth, National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO
T.N. Krishnamurti, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
Vasu Misra, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
Ben Kirtman, University of Miami, Miami, FL
Robert Dickinson, University of Texas, Austin, TX
Michela Biasutti, Earth Institute, Columbia University, New York, NY
Mark Cane, Columbia University, New York, NY
Lisa Goddard, Earth Institute, Columbia University, New York, NY
Alan Betts, Atmospheric Research, Pittsford, VT

RICO20 Letter

Enjoy the read...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: mobiusmale

This has already been posted:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's just as sensationalized here as it is for the other post too... The government isn't doing anything here. It's just scientists petitioning the government.

Yes, well except that the letter is, in part, written in support of a U.S. Senator's op-ed call to consider proceeding with an investigation of the oil and coal industries

Fossil fuel companies and their allies are funding a massive and sophisticated campaign to mislead the American people about the environmental harm caused by carbon pollution.

Their activities are often compared to those of Big Tobacco denying the health dangers of smoking. Big Tobacco’s denial scheme was ultimately found by a federal judge to have amounted to a racketeering enterprise.

...The parallels between what the tobacco industry did and what the fossil fuel industry is doing now are striking.

Nothing terribly ambiguous about his views...Senator Whitehouse doesn't say they "might be" doing these things...

Call for RICO Investigation

As Walter Olsen from the CATO Institute points out;

By the mid-2000s, calls were being heard, especially in other countries, for making denial of climate change consensus a legally punishable offense or even a “crime against humanity,” while widely known advocate James Hansen had publicly called for show trials of fossil fuel executives. Notwithstanding the tobacco precedent, it had been widely imagined that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution might deter image-conscious officials from pursuing such attacks on their adversaries’ speech. But it has not deterred Sen. Whitehouse.

Crimes Against Humanity?

These types of "calls to punitive action", including the one by Whitehouse, are where advocacy crosses over the line to dangerous zealotry.

I think it is a good idea. Why not prosecute scientists that are making things up? That should solve some problems ... put those climatologists in jail.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I think that you misunderstand my stance on this subject (and much of the recent, mass-approved science, from GMO research to AGW research and beyond)--I'm skeptical of it all, and fully understand that it gets turned into a call for a "solution" to a problem that generally doesn't exist or need fixed.

My point in saying that science is fine is that the true art of science is fine--it's that bastardization of the process that is being passed off as modern science that is not fine.

a reply to: mobiusmale

Back when it was discovered that tobacco caused cancer there were lot's of scientists and doctors getting paid big bucks by tobacco companies to lie, sometimes even under oath, about the dangers of smoking.

Today it's no different. The big energy companies, the big polluters of the world, have politicians in their pockets and I'm sure that some of the tiny percentage of scientists who don't hold the Consensus view are also under the employ of the Exxon-Mobils of the world.

I can understand the skepticism by some climate deniers when politicians and celebrities start crying foul about Climate Change, but the fact remains that the science is there. We are putting ourselves in a very vulnerable position and pushing nature in a bad bad direction. Just on a moral level I think there should be outrage when some jackass scientist or politician acts as if human pollution is not contributing to climate change.

To be a denier of human driven Climate Change is tantamount to treason against the planet Earth, unless you go out of your way to support efforts to regulate pollution and rein in our rampant Greenhouse effect. Are you pro-pollution? Are you anti-human? No. Then you have no reason to deny reality that human beings are making the Earth warmer and that this needs to be curtailed on a species wide scale.

Regulate pollution ? really ? please.. do you know how many power plants are in the north of Mexico that send power to the USA?, who is giving up their way of life for AGW or ACC ?? maybe it's time to acknowledge the real problem, we're heading to make "Soylent Green" real!

a reply to: mobiusmale

Yea, well, it seems like the letter is sending a bit of advice as to how to justify (RICO Laws) an investigation into his claims that large corps are paying some dubious scientists to forge scientific data that is apparrently contradictory to his and the majority of the evidence collected that says that the pollution created by large corps is a big problem.


As i expected, He is at no point saying that people who disagree with him should be prosecuted. He is saying very clearly that corporations and scientists who are faking data should be prosecuted.


If these claims are true and it is found that corps are paying scientists to fake their data, as they have been shown to do in the past, then i would be more than oleased to see them prosecuted.

a reply to: mobiusmale

For the record, let's get something straight, the warming of the planet is confirmed, nobody is questioning that data. We are breaking records all over the planet. what is in question is how much of it is our fault.

Or rather the corps fault. This whole argument comes down to the negotiation of how much pollution is too much? Right now we have the EPA which rates each corp and scores them as to how much pollution they create and they fine them based on individual infractions and where they land on this scale. Enviromental groups are pushing legislation to restrict the amount of pollution a corp is allowed. The corps are also defending their interests with legislation and very likely by paying scientists to fake data making the corp look more favorable so they don't have to pay out as much. This is a crime, and if they are found to be doing this, they will be prosecuted.


All of this aside, how many of you out there would like to see a significant amount of the production of pollution in our air and water reduced. I for one would like to see it. If polluting our environment becomes too expensive, maybe these corps will try a little harder not to do it. Win win win. Everybody wins.

a reply to: Titen-Sxull

OK Here is the challenge

Since you are SOOOO convinced that scientists NEVER EVER lie - only Tobacco Company Execs and Fossil Fuel Execs -

Please provide proof of the lie. Does smoking cause lung cancer. You must have the proof since you are so sure that it does!

Please explain to me this tiny tiny little conundrum.

If smoking CAUSES lung cancer, and rate of smoking in the general population has been going down for 6o years......then why has the incidence of lung cancer not also decreased.

www.journaloftheoretics.com...

We know that when scientists announced that fat in our diets was CAUSING heart attacks that it must have been true. After all, billions of dollars were spent on changing our very food supply. Some farmers (eggs) went out of business, other farmers had to breed animals to have less fat. A whole industry was born for low-fat foods. It must be true right. They would never ever lie for over 40 years about such a thing right????

Well - maybe the evidence was't quite as rock solid as we were led to be believe.

We know that when scientists announced that marijuana caused REEFER MADNESS that it must have been true. They have been jailing people for over 80 years for something as small as a seed of marijuana. No sane person would ever do such a thing now would they?

Oh well - maybe they would!

Aren't you tired of falling for the big lie!!

Tired of Control Freaks

I think the letter is in bad taste, kind of like that letter some congressmen sent to Iran. The other side would be calling foul if the climate skeptics wrote something similar. But then that is just my opinion, someone else may think it wasn't enough...

Personally, I think climate scientists should stop pressuring the UN and the USA with other countries like this. Why? Because it doesn't work, people will always resist and resist bigger authority types even more. Would be better to go from town to town and sell it locally, showing the individual benefits tailored to their town.


Oh, and Titen-Sxull. Hello there, I'm posting on this site already

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: mobiusmale

This has already been posted:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's just as sensationalized here as it is for the other post too... The government isn't doing anything here. It's just scientists petitioning the government.

The only thing being 'sensationalized' is climate change.

So politician's will never let a good 'crisis' go to waste.

originally posted by: neo96

The only thing being 'sensationalized' is climate change.

So politician's will never let a good 'crisis' go to waste.

You're missing the point that Krazyshot is making though Neo.

This topic has already been posted here ATS. So go argue this topic there rather than making a duplicate. (Not saying you made a duplicate or anything but you know what I'm saying.)

You should know better than to continue using this thread especially since YOU started the other thread dealing with this topic yourself.

So go here to discuss it instead of continuing it here.