Be aggressive towards women. call them idiots.

Hi folks. read before judging the content:

I came across a thread where people were discussing something and a male and female were debating something. well, the male was calling the opinion that the woman posted (not her opinion) stupid. she responded by saying it wasn't her thoughts, but if he wants to debate something, basically bring it.

The guys response was to say he wasn't intending it to be her..just used her by proxy..fine..but then he said it
he said he is never aggressive towards women, and it would be his first time ever to basically be unpleasant to a female online (aka, calling her stupid).

Right...this is not a new thing..its very common actually. men believing they are being chivalrous in being forever nice and pleasant in debates when they realize they are talking to a female

Problem is, they may not understand just how absolutely insulting this is.

Women are equally as capable at debating, taking and giving insults, and understanding complex ideas as men. they are genuinely equal here and should therefore be treated equally. To actively speak differently to a woman in a discussion than you would a man, to be softer to her, is to suggest that she is emotionally or intellectually inferior and you must protect her from your stronger words. basically, you are suggesting you need to treat women like children.
never make this mistake, and never assume by being pleasant to women in general moreso than men, you are somehow doing them a favor...rather, its a slap.

So, if you would normally call a man a idiot for saying something idiotic..feel absolutely free to call a woman the same thing. she isn't an idiot because she is a woman, she is a idiot because she...is an idiot.

however...

I would say it might just be better to aim for cleaning up your views towards men and using a tone of respect as the norm for everyone, avoiding insults of a person when discussing an idea.
ideas are often stupid..people...well, people can be complicated

I am ranting here, but also learning. for too long I have, through seemingly desired pleasantness, treated women differently than men as the norm. I have lately been seeing this not as some merit, but a disgraceful behavior.

naa, women..you are idiots just like men. trust me, it takes one to know one.


so, thoughts?
should this also be pushed onto things like opening doors for women? (I dont think it should. opening doors is an accepted gender norm not really saying anything about anyone as a person...outside of maybe men will use their greater strength to help women in physical matters (if you want to get really philosophical))

a reply to: SaturnFX

Excellant post SFX. In the latter portion; I always hold the door,elevator, yes ma'am no ma'am. ... (this is not a generalization) wait it is.

More and more they (ladies) fail to acknowledge or even say "Thank you"....

I digress. .....

Men don't want to "debate" women. We're not interested in "competing" with them. Men look to women for companionship and support, not to argue.

That's what we have our guy friends for. We talk to women differently because we look at them different. That being said, being an asshole to someone is being an asshole to someone, and there's rarely excuse for that. But don't get upset when we change our tone in the positive (being nice and "chivalrous") when we realize who it is we're talking to.

We're kinda born that way, you know?

a reply to: ReadLeader

as a southerner, I also do the courtesy of the norm gender standards (things are getting a bit confusing with the new "gender fluid" stuff going on, so when in doubt, I drop the ma'am/sir bit, but remain respectful nonetheless

I value gender differences and society roles for the harmless stuff (such as opening doors)
I reject however treating people differently and softer mentally as a person. thats not some traditional gender role, thats a dated gender perception.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I have a 16 year old "feminist" daughter. She lives with her mother, so I try to be the cool dad and listen to her problems without judging her, while providing her with guidance on life is about making choices, myself and your mother have taught you right from wrong, so any choice you make , knowing you have been taught right from wrong is YOUR CHOICE, and you will suffer any negative consequences for making that choice!

Needless to say, I have a blast using her feminist beliefs to show her she is a hypocrite when she tells me about the stupid boys in her life!

originally posted by: NthOther
Men don't want to "debate" women. We're not interested in "competing" with them. Men look to women for companionship and support, not to argue.

That's what we have our guys friends for. We talk to women differently because we look at them different.

you should consider coming out of that viewpoint. you will be surprised to find out women are actually pretty clever people also who can match you in debate....possibly even run circles around you if you are stuck in thinking they are somehow lesser and put your guard down.

We're kinda born that way, you know?

no, you arent. you are raised this way.
you were born to mate.

also, women like men who dont use soft mittens to touch them. nothing turns the stomach of a woman more than a "white knight" weakling who wont challenge her

you were born to mate..why are you acting then against your interest by turning women off?

a reply to: SaturnFX

On ATS we're talking to on line persona's

Hence we make assumptions, just because a user assumes a personality, or gender doesn't make it so. My pet troll can appear in many guises, and indeed has over the last couple of years. One time a virile male, an alcoholic, another a vulnerable female.

But as in poker he/she has a tell

Never assume

Just my 2 cents

Cody

a reply to: SaturnFX

HMMMM this sounds so familiar ha ha. Very often I've tried to have discussions with individuals on an idea and have been patted on the head as though it was cute that i was thinking all by myself. (gee thanks)
your right- It can be insulting to have people dismiss or not take your ideas seriously or entertain a real discussion with you beacuse of some preconceived notion of who u are and how u should be treated.

However, I am always open to fair debate and I would never call someone an idiot ( even if i suspected they might be ha ha) or be personally aggressive with someone over their ideas. gender aside. I'd expect the same in return.I want their side of the story. It may come out in the wash that one of us isn't as well read or learned over the matter as we should be and isn't that what discussion/debate is all about.
So- be affirmative and aggressive with your IDEAS not your insults. Tell me i'm wrong and why. Don't call me stupid.

good post!

Women , generally speaking, are more offended then males, especially when they come to a place of sanctuary like ATS or other forms of social media. Once a guy offends a woman on the Internet, they often backtrack because of this stereotype, once they realise they may have offended her and potentially ruined their day. Men would either stoop to a lower level but not allow it to affect their day when compared to women. Often female posters make it known they are women, which to some degree absolves them from abuse/certain types of abuse from the off. If they wanted to be treated as equal as many claim to be, they would not let their gender be known on debate sites. Just me maybe

I haven't noticed a whole lot of deference here just because I'm a woman. Of course, being more conservative and sticking up for faith sort of removes me from any considerations I might otherwise get as part of a "protected" class a group.

IME, you only really get deferred to if you stay within the bounds of expected norms. Step outside and you are treated accordingly for not playing by the expected class/gender/race societal group rules.

The way I see it: If I'm an idiot and I get called an idiot. Oh well, I asked for it. If I'm not an idiot and I get called an idiot, oh well, someone else's issue.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: SaturnFX

I have a 16 year old "feminist" daughter. She lives with her mother, so I try to be the cool dad and listen to her problems without judging her, while providing her with guidance on life is about making choices, myself and your mother have taught you right from wrong, so any choice you make , knowing you have been taught right from wrong is YOUR CHOICE, and you will suffer any negative consequences for making that choice!

Needless to say, I have a blast using her feminist beliefs to show her she is a hypocrite when she tells me about the stupid boys in her life!

most women (especially teens) have no clue what feminism is. they usually drop that title as they get older and go more for equality and respect (egalitarianism) while preserving gender role identity. happier outcome.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: SaturnFX

I have a 16 year old "feminist" daughter. She lives with her mother, so I try to be the cool dad and listen to her problems without judging her, while providing her with guidance on life is about making choices, myself and your mother have taught you right from wrong, so any choice you make , knowing you have been taught right from wrong is YOUR CHOICE, and you will suffer any negative consequences for making that choice!

Needless to say, I have a blast using her feminist beliefs to show her she is a hypocrite when she tells me about the stupid boys in her life!

most women (especially teens) have no clue what feminism is. they usually drop that title as they get older and go more for equality and respect (egalitarianism) while preserving gender role identity. happier outcome.

She isn't quite to the militant stage yet, but not to worry, ole Dad is having fun with planting some important seeds she will need in her later life!

I can't make the plant grow, but I certainly as a parent can plant a seed.....

originally posted by: SaturnFX

you will be surprised to find out women are actually pretty clever people also who can match you in debate....possibly even run circles around you if you are stuck in thinking they are somehow lesser and put your guard down.

Their intelligence or wit is not the issue. You just don't get it. We understand that they are our equals in those things, and I never said anything to the contrary.

It's simply not as important to us as some would like to think it is.

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: SaturnFX

I have a 16 year old "feminist" daughter. She lives with her mother, so I try to be the cool dad and listen to her problems without judging her, while providing her with guidance on life is about making choices, myself and your mother have taught you right from wrong, so any choice you make , knowing you have been taught right from wrong is YOUR CHOICE, and you will suffer any negative consequences for making that choice!

Needless to say, I have a blast using her feminist beliefs to show her she is a hypocrite when she tells me about the stupid boys in her life!

most women (especially teens) have no clue what feminism is. they usually drop that title as they get older and go more for equality and respect (egalitarianism) while preserving gender role identity. happier outcome.

She isn't quite to the militant stage yet, but not to worry, ole Dad is having fun with planting some important seeds she will need in her later life!

I can't make the plant grow, but I certainly as a parent can plant a seed.....

you gotta be careful though. impressionable age and all.
the womens sufferage movement might be a good thing to introduce her to, and how it splintered into the militant sufferagettes that did more harm than good in activism.
then show the side by side comparison of the womens equality activists doing damn good work for equality verses the feminists movement focused on advancing womens issues (without end, without equality as the goal).

but once you start that, you may end up cultivating an extremist on the opposite end and create a anti-feminist. not a desirable outcome.

I reckon yeah, just keep countering her ideology with her actions and she will eventually see the hypocracy is unsustainable and choose misery or happyness.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Hi folks. read before judging the content:

I came across a thread where people were discussing something and a male and female were debating something. well, the male was calling the opinion that the woman posted (not her opinion) stupid. she responded by saying it wasn't her thoughts, but if he wants to debate something, basically bring it.

The guys response was to say he wasn't intending it to be her..just used her by proxy..fine..but then he said it
he said he is never aggressive towards women, and it would be his first time ever to basically be unpleasant to a female online (aka, calling her stupid).

Right...this is not a new thing..its very common actually. men believing they are being chivalrous in being forever nice and pleasant in debates when they realize they are talking to a female

Problem is, they may not understand just how absolutely insulting this is.

Women are equally as capable at debating, taking and giving insults, and understanding complex ideas as men. they are genuinely equal here and should therefore be treated equally. To actively speak differently to a woman in a discussion than you would a man, to be softer to her, is to suggest that she is emotionally or intellectually inferior and you must protect her from your stronger words. basically, you are suggesting you need to treat women like children.
never make this mistake, and never assume by being pleasant to women in general moreso than men, you are somehow doing them a favor...rather, its a slap.

So, if you would normally call a man a idiot for saying something idiotic..feel absolutely free to call a woman the same thing. she isn't an idiot because she is a woman, she is a idiot because she...is an idiot.

however...

I would say it might just be better to aim for cleaning up your views towards men and using a tone of respect as the norm for everyone, avoiding insults of a person when discussing an idea.
ideas are often stupid..people...well, people can be complicated

I am ranting here, but also learning. for too long I have, through seemingly desired pleasantness, treated women differently than men as the norm. I have lately been seeing this not as some merit, but a disgraceful behavior.

naa, women..you are idiots just like men. trust me, it takes one to know one.

so, thoughts?
should this also be pushed onto things like opening doors for women? (I dont think it should. opening doors is an accepted gender norm not really saying anything about anyone as a person...outside of maybe men will use their greater strength to help women in physical matters (if you want to get really philosophical))

OP, treat each situation unique! Dont limit yourself by having a preset thing in mind about gender. That doesn't work in todays world.

originally posted by: NthOther

It's simply not as important to us ME as you'd like to think it is.

fixed that sentence for you for accuracy.

oh, and I am a guy btw (feel free to call me an idiot )

I suspect it is important, else why comment on this thread? there are all kinds of threads up now. You chose to come in here and comment because your thoughts on this you do deem important...and now you feel you might not fully understand why you think why you think so are diminishing its importance.

just my perception here.

Whats worse is that these stupid men actually change their attitude soon as they find out its a "woman"(and women do take advantage of this). I mean come on. its internet, we are here to discuss. Not trying to score points here.

Tho women are looked as delicate compared to men, that is biology. Though that is mainly due to physcial difference.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: SaturnFX

I have a 16 year old "feminist" daughter. She lives with her mother, so I try to be the cool dad and listen to her problems without judging her, while providing her with guidance on life is about making choices, myself and your mother have taught you right from wrong, so any choice you make , knowing you have been taught right from wrong is YOUR CHOICE, and you will suffer any negative consequences for making that choice!

Needless to say, I have a blast using her feminist beliefs to show her she is a hypocrite when she tells me about the stupid boys in her life!

most women (especially teens) have no clue what feminism is. they usually drop that title as they get older and go more for equality and respect (egalitarianism) while preserving gender role identity. happier outcome.

She isn't quite to the militant stage yet, but not to worry, ole Dad is having fun with planting some important seeds she will need in her later life!

I can't make the plant grow, but I certainly as a parent can plant a seed.....

you gotta be careful though. impressionable age and all.
the womens sufferage movement might be a good thing to introduce her to, and how it splintered into the militant sufferagettes that did more harm than good in activism.
then show the side by side comparison of the womens equality activists doing damn good work for equality verses the feminists movement focused on advancing womens issues (without end, without equality as the goal).

but once you start that, you may end up cultivating an extremist on the opposite end and create a anti-feminist. not a desirable outcome.

I reckon yeah, just keep countering her ideology with her actions and she will eventually see the hypocracy is unsustainable and choose misery or happyness.

I never direct my beliefs on her. I just take what I know and challenge her to think on her own before accepting a belief in anything!

You seen me on the board enough to know how I think about many things, and she LOVES Bernie Sanders! Quite a shock to ole dad, but I didn't discourage her from believing in him, but I did challenge her to read the Constitution in it's original form and that our country wasn't a Socialist country but did have some socialist programs. That was it! Trust me, I use myself as an example of what NOT TO BECOME all the time.

Her life, her choices. That is all I am trying to teach her, other than our Constitutional values that have been long forgotten.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

I suspect it is important, else why comment on this thread?

Why make the thread in the first place if you don't want to hear any counters to what you're saying?

Anyway, I leave you to your ideological self-reinforcement.

originally posted by: cody599
a reply to: SaturnFX

On ATS we're talking to on line persona's

Hence we make assumptions, just because a user assumes a personality, or gender doesn't make it so. My pet troll can appear in many guises, and indeed has over the last couple of years. One time a virile male, an alcoholic, another a vulnerable female.

But as in poker he/she has a tell

Never assume

Remember that, never assume. Not everyone who comes on online chat forums do so under a guise. They project themselves as they are offline. They're real. I have 4 different usernames here simply because I'm a complex individual and I might leave people scratching their heads over time thinking " Does all that come from the same person?" I have one who's in your face and rather crude (gets me in trouble with them mods sometimes), one who's intellectual and emotional, (The old timer) one who's both of those yet more emotional, and then this one, just someone who's trying to be a nice guy. But they're all real. They're all me.

Anyway, all that aside.........to Saturn FX........ intellectualism and the need to debate what you know with others, to me, is one of those gender-neutral qualities that we all have. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you're either smart or you're not. Just because you might be a woman, that doesn't diminish your opinion to being somewhat less valid than mine. It also doesn't mean that it automatically comes from a female point of view, but rather a learned one.

So if you're a woman and come to me wanting to debate an issue, you're going to get the same as your male counterparts: A no-holds barred debate done with respect. (And if you wine the debate, I'll still respect you in the morning )

Respect.......another gender neutral quality that everyone either knows how to give....or not.