At least 220 dead, 450 hurt in stampede during Hajj outside Mecca

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Lets pretend for a moment that the head line was "700 dead after stampede after Justin Bieber concert at Madison Square Gardens".

Or to make it even more interesting "Hundreds dead in Washington as faithful caught in stampede as they race to see the pope".

once these happen...you come to us...ok.

That does not counter my point.

What I am saying is that if the headline where 700 sports fans killed at the Super bowl for example, ATS would be full of the "RIP, so sorry, my prayers are with you, how did this happen?" posts and not what really amounts to hate posts that when you read between the lines says.

"LOLZ dead Arabs"

Its sick, 700 people are dead, that's all the the discussion should be around. Not jokes about them being Muslim and everything that's "wrong" with that religion.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I didn't say they should...

I said they can.
Performing Hajj is a great honour among Muslims, sort of like the ultimate on a bucket list.

Family can take solace in the fact that their loved ones managed to partake in what is an important part of the culture.

to each his own I guess.

Maybe it's because I'm not a religious person...I cant grasp the concept of honourable death over a pilgrimage. Maybe that's my deficiency...

Well maybe I can..I would consider an honourable death...giving one's life to perhaps save another.

Since I was born in a catholic society and partook some of the initiation...I would consider my death in Rome while visiting a pope and getting trampled by eager catholics...a stupid death.

Anyway...it is never a laughing matter when people die...what bugs me the most about this...is because these deaths were probably caused by over zealous religious folks...who seem to think it's somehow a life achievement to attend one of these pilgrimages. But that's just my view on it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

you're overreaching...I would call it stupid just the same...it depends on the reason. If people were calmly watching a game and a stand collapses from under their feet and people stampede out of fear to save their lives...than that would be sad.

if they stampede all over eachother to be the first to get their ball signed by a star football player...than that would be stupid in my book.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a feeling that if that did happen at a sporting event or Justin concert that the comments would be worst then what we see here.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

The Hajj is for a Muslim what getting communion from the pope is to a Catholic, its a pretty big deal.

Now my problem with the ATS reaction to this is that when you read between the lines the argument is basically that Islam is a stupid religion so those people shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I think the real question should be why is the Saudi government not doing more ensure safety at this event, not why the hell are people going there anyway.

If you cannot understand their customs and faith that is fine, but in my view you should respect their right to practice their religion as they see fit with out condemning them or making fun of them for it. Now all you need to do that is to be a little tolerant of others but for some bizarre reason "tolerance" has became a dirty word on ATS.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Here's a way for you to understand...
Taking religion out of it...


Do you have a bucket list (things you really wish to do before you die)...
Example;
1) Swim with dolphins...
2) Work in a soup kitchen...
3) Bungee jump...
4) Bring presents to a children's hospital...


These things may seem meaningless to others outside of your circle, but to you and your family would be an achievement before dying...



That's Hajj, 1 of the 5 Pillars of Islam, to Muslims, analogously.
Another important one is charity, or Zakat...

& if a Muslim can give away up to a 3rd of their income to charity before they pass, it'd be another great honour.

Hajj is a spiritual journey.
If a Buddhist died shortly after visiting the Dalai Lama, I'm sure family could take solace in that. (That's a better analogy)



Yes, this is a reckless and preventable tragedy, but it doesn't take away these people's personal achievement that they waited a life time to perform.

Very very interesting. When I attended university I took a world religion class that basically covered the prodominate faiths of the world and their belief systems, stories and practices. It included Jewdism, Christianity the Muslim faith, Hinduism and Buddhism.

In particular I liked the Muslim based unit on the Hajj due to Mecca's beautiful architecture and many holy sites from the springs to caves to the Kabah and its mysterious black meteorite.The entire Hajj journey however was depicted as very civilized affair every one dressed in clean pressed white robes circling the Kabah people of all walks of life coming together for a faith building experience. They totally gloss over the logistics of it all and the danger. Not one mention of these regular stampede events or of the build up of human filth or lack of fresh water.

They made it seem like your biggest concern would be finding enough little pebbles(49) to be exact for the stoning of the devil ceremony. That one might want to bring pebbles from home.

reply to: Flyingclaydisk

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Now my problem with the ATS reaction to this is that when you read between the lines the argument is basically that Islam is a stupid religion so those people shouldn't have been there in the first place.

You didn't read well between the lines. My argument is...all religions are stupid because they makes people to behave in an unreasonable and sometimes dangerous ways. There are plenty of examples.

but in my view you should respect their right to practice their religion as they see fit with out condemning them or making fun of them for it.

I respect their right to practice whatever they want. I do that by not going to streets and protesting their practices which get people killed. I'm not attacking anyone or putting anyone on trial. I'm here...online...expressing my views on it.

but for some bizarre reason "tolerance" has became a dirty word on ATS.

so does being tolerant mean I should just shut up ?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'm so glad that there are people like you that post here .. Even though I'll probably be thought a bleeding heart idiot I admit that it distresses me to witness so much callousness and so little compassion for other people. So, I just wanted to acknowledge your contributions on this matter of hundreds of human lives being lost and how some people feel justified in making mockery of it.

originally posted by: Athetos
Very very interesting. When I attended university I took a world religion class that basically covered the prodominate faiths of the world and their belief systems, stories and practices. It included Jewdism, Christianity the Muslim faith, Hinduism and Buddhism.

In particular I liked the Muslim based unit on the Hajj due to Mecca's beautiful architecture and many holy sites from the springs to caves to the Kabah and its mysterious black meteorite.The entire Hajj journey however was depicted as very civilized affair every one dressed in clean pressed white robes circling the Kabah people of all walks of life coming together for a faith building experience. They totally gloss over the logistics of it all and the danger. Not one mention of these regular stampede events or of the build up of human filth or lack of fresh water.

They made it seem like your biggest concern would be finding enough little pebbles(49) to be exact for the stoning of the devil ceremony. That one might want to bring pebbles from home.

reply to: Flyingclaydisk

It is really funny to me how the nastiness is left out of numerous things. Take the Tour de France for instance....how do you suppose they get rid of waste....hint..I knew a bike tech for a team and there is a special person to clean the bikes at the end of the stages....

I would think for most it is common sense that with 2+million people flooding an area that bathrooms will be hard to come by, but I am sure some still go there and are shocked by the waste everywhere. I would hate to be on cleanup crew after that. Hope you're not shy if you make the pilgrimage!

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I am going to try to explain tolerance, lets take this statement you made.

I do that by not going to streets and protesting their practices which get people killed.

You are saying that it was their religion that got them killed.

It was not.

They died because something went wrong, to early to tell what, but I think its fair to say even at this early stage that there was inadequate safety precautions in place.

Now by saying this:

.all religions are stupid

You are being intolerant,

so does being tolerant mean I should just shut up ?

No it means you should be accepting of others even if you disagree with their way of life.

So you accept that as stupid as you might think religion is, there are billions of others who disagree with you for who religion is very important to them and if that is how they want to live let them and respect that they have a different view than you. Once you do that you can then also see that for them the pilgrimage to Mecca is a important part of their life and they had ever right to be there and that the problem was not their religion but rather the safety standards.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Hajj is a spiritual journey.
If a Buddhist died shortly after visiting the Dalai Lama, I'm sure family could take solace in that. (That's a better analogy)

I would go that far to even compare the two.

But as I said before...to each his own. It comes down to you being free and choosing your religion, just as I'm free to choose none.

To you it's honour...to me it's ridiculous. But rest assured...I would never protest your freedom to choose. I do however reserve the right to paint it black.

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a feeling that if that did happen at a sporting event or Justin concert that the comments would be worst then what we see here.

Comments would definitely be worse if it was a Justin concert. Could you imagine a eulogy saying you died getting trampled by a bunch of preteen "Beliebers"?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So you accept that as stupid as you might think religion is, there are billions of others who disagree with you for who religion is very important to them

No man...faith is important. Religion is not. I'm sure you understand the difference. One can be faithful without enduldging in ridiculous cultish ceremonies.

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So you accept that as stupid as you might think religion is, there are billions of others who disagree with you for who religion is very important to them

No man...faith is important. Religion is not. I'm sure you understand the difference. One can be faithful without enduldging in ridiculous cultish ceremonies.

That has almost nothing to do with what i am talking about but whatever.

These people did not die because of their religion, their deaths should not be trivialised and the real question moving forward should be how did this happen and how do they prevent it from happening again while still maintaining the tradition.

originally posted by: Gothmog
I hope someone doesnt take this the wrong way , but how many people were injured rushing to see the Pope in the US ?
Wouldnt that be comparable but on a smaller scale ? Ratios and proportions et al

Mods, delete post if needed

Don't even get me started about Wal-Mart on Black Friday..

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a feeling that if that did happen at a sporting event or Justin concert that the comments would be worst then what we see here.

Comments would definitely be worse if it was a Justin concert. Could you imagine a eulogy saying you died getting trampled by a bunch of preteen "Beliebers"?

**Bangs head off wall**

ouch.

a reply to: maddy21

The crane thing isn't a semi-regular occurrence, but Hajj stampedes do happen reasonably often, enough that when I heard the news this morning I thought, "Again!?"

I am sorry that this happened, but this is why buildings in the Western world tend to have capacity allowances with doors the open outward. It drastically reduces the risks of this kind of thing. And while I know the measures are not popular, it may also be one of the reasons why Israelis control the numbers of people who can access al-Aqsa at any one time.

The difficulty the Saudis are up against is that it is more or less mandated that a Muslim try to attend this set of holy days in Mecca specifically at least once in their life, if not as many times as they can, and the religion itself continues to grow so that there are more and more Muslims. Mecca can only reasonably accommodate so many human beings, but there are always going to be more and more who will seek to physically attend on these days, at this time, in this way.

The risks will only grow of this happening more often and with more people dying.

Piss poor crowd management, again. Video clip shows the entrance way closed with temporary fences.They opened 2 sections across a gap that had at least 12 across and the surge from behind funneled everyone into a meat grinder basicaly.

bad situation to be in

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

They died because something went wrong, to early to tell what, but I think its fair to say even at this early stage that there was inadequate safety precautions in place.

Have to disagree, that construction crane collapsing in Mecca last week was a tragic accident, due to inadequate safety precautions. These Hajj stampede killings happen almost annually in SA because the government does nothing year after year to prevent this. These people know the risks and don't hold the authorities accountable.