The tithe offering

a reply to: misskat1
In England, the history of tithes had an ironic further stage.
During the later Middle Ages, many parishes got attached to monasteries as part of their property,
When Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries, their property passed into lay hands, including much of the tithe income. So tithes were now sometimes being paid to lay landlords.
They changed into cash payments in the nineteenth century, did not get finally abolished until the twentieth.

Yes, in principle, the acceptance of Paul's teaching ought to include understanding that we are "free from the law".
But the Cultwatch link I put into the second post shows a trend of ignoring that principle even on the evangelical side of the modern church. Apart from the side-effects of taking everything in the Old Testament literally, being able to claim money "as of right" is just so tempting.

Now understanding what the Bible says and to whom it says it, we now know that tithing is a Biblical type of giving, and if one purposes in his heart to give a tithe then it is acceptable but no Christian is under a requirement to tithe.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Thank you, that looks like a reasonable summary.

Ive seen people give because they think they are going to get blessed 10 fold. I took care of a little old lady who faithfully gave 10% out of her $800 per month social security to her church, then at the end of every month she would scream and cus God out for not giving her money back. Throw a huge fit, throwing stuff. She was very old so her attitude was probably magnified by her age. But, this is a common attitude among tithers. Giving to get something.

a reply to: misskat1

because that is a false teaching and a misuse of Gods word by those who teach such. They do so to make money. If you give with a wrong heart then you are giving for the wrong reason.

For information;
This thread is a sequel to The basket offering
They form part of a series which will be continued in later weeks.

a reply to: Ignatian

If memory serves, the scripture you are thinking of is "Confess your sins, one to another, that you may be healed." Or something like that, but I dont remember Jesus commanding us to confess our sins to a priest. I believe its more productive to confess to the person you hurt, or to a friend or spouse that they can help you overcome your weaknesses.

I just read where the Pope says its dangerous to have a relationship with Jesus outside the church. This is not scriptural, you can not replace Jesus as the Mediator.

However, if your religion works for you, then God Speed. I chose a different path. Jesus is my only master. I believe we all must work out our own salvation, with fear and trembling. It is just too important to place my trust in any religion that has a track record like the Catholic Church.

Im native American, do you really want to get into how wonderful your church is? Lest we bring up Father Sierra? And many many others. Brush up on your history. The truth about what they did, should sicken all Catholics, but instead he is about to become a Saint. So, much for confessing your sins. Why arent you "Good Catholics" standing up and saying NO to this? Its a slap in the face for all that have been oppressed, raped, murdered, burned at the stake etc etc etc etc at the hands of Priests.

a reply to: misskat1

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of Christianity, as the basis for confessing sins to a priest is very biblical. See Baruch 1:13, Lv 19:20-22, Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23 and Jas 5:13-16

If Jesus started a physical church as he did in Mt 16, which is The Catholic Church, it might be a good idea to belong to that church if you call yourself a Christian. But as to what the pope actually said, I'm not familiar with the quote.

I assume you're speaking of Fr Serra? It might be advisable that you read sources that are Catholic friendly in addition to your sources that are anti-catholic, you know, to get a full picture, to deny ignorance. I think you may discover a different Fr Serra. And yes, Im glad he's being made a saint. He more than deserves it. See? There's 2 sides to every coin.

a reply to: Ignatian

You really believe Jesus started the Catholic Church? I guess all religions believe He started their Church.

Did you actually read the scriptures you quoted? They dont tell you to confess your sins to a priest. If you go back and read them you will see why I am lol.

Lev 19 20-22 Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. 21'He shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD to the doorway of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.… NOTICE IT SAYS OFFERING TO THE LORD! All fall short of the glory of God, so why would I go to a priest when I can go directly to the Lord. And just FYI we dont have to sacrifice animals anymore, Jesus paid the whole price for our sin.

John 20-23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Nothing Zilch No mention of the requirement of a Priest for forgiveness of sins. I read all the scriptures you quoted, it isnt there. I have no need to argue with you. I think you are misinformed, you think I am. I agree to disagree. It is only your belief in it that makes it true for you. Just because the Church wants to Claim that they were started by Jesus, doesnt make it the truth.

a reply to: misskat1

You forgot to read verse 22 from Leviticus..."the priest shall make atonement before The Lord for the wrong the man has committed." This is the historical OT precedent for confessing sins to a priest.

And, if you believe that scripture is the inspired word of God, then Jesus says explicitly that he was starting a church, and he gave the keys(authority) to the church to St Peter, and his successors, the popes. He said his bride, the church, will never fall. And?

We've had 260 or so popes ever since St. Peter. That's a fact. Historical fact.

"Whoever's sins YOU forgive.." Who is "you"? It's not God he's speaking to, and he's not talking about himself, so who is this "you"?

You should read more from the early church fathers. What did all those 1st and 2nd century Christians believe? The first Christians, ones who even knew Jesus? Maybe it would shed more light for you on the history of your faith. In those days, they confessed sin to the entire community! That's where the tradition of Ash Wednesday started. Sackcloth and ashes to declare oneself a sinner.

Like most Protestants, the word "authority" makes you squirm. Your "church" has no authority, It's made up. Based on your own interpretations. Instead, like scripture says, hold true to the traditions your fathers taught you. You do know that EVERYthing Jesus said or did is NOT in the bible, right?

If you want to be in the church that Jesus instituted, then you should be Catholic. It's that simple.

Sorry for the thread drift, Disraeli hates that:-)

a reply to: Ignatian

I believed that my Religion was the only true Religion, and I would have defended it with my life. One of the hardest things I ever did, was examine the historical and dogmatic facts surrounding their belief system, and make up my own mind about weather they had the "truth" or not. The only effective tool I found to undue my brainwashing was reading scripture, Hebrews talks about cleansing our conscience by the washing of the Water of the Word, (paraphrased) When I separated from Church Doctrine and read only the bible, I found a different God than my Religion had defined for me. The truth I found, is now my truth. I respect that it isnt your truth.

So, there is no need to defend the Catholic Religion to me. I am sure you have examined the whole truth surrounding your Religion and it has only made it more clear to you that they are the True Religion. It gives you the peace that surpasses all understanding, joy unspeakable and full of glory. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but through me. (memory paraphrased) I think we both agree on this, we just interpret it differently. We need not argue.

a reply to: Ignatian

In a feeble attempt at jest, I thought you might find this humorous,

My (a lot great) grandfather was William Thompson www.ncgenweb.us... Quote:

"He was chosen first minister of the new church at Braintree (now Quincy) where he remained for the rest of his life. In conjunction with his friend Rev. Richard Mather (Cotton Mathers grandfather) of Dorchester he wrote a book entitled 'An Answer to Mr. Charles Herle"

In England he drew the fire of Archbishop Laud and was presented for nonconformity in the fall of 1633 "for receiving the sacrament of the Lord's Supper at Winwick church [while] sitting and leaning" and for baptizing children " in basins of pewter or wood in the chapel" and for omitting the sign of the cross." Bishop Morton, Bridgeman's predecessor, had been no less impressed with Thompson's godliness than with Mather's and called Thompson "a great nonconformist."

He came to America in the 1600's to flee persecution from the Catholics and to find freedom of Religion. He was a Catholic Priest, as well as his father, and grandfather (I would have to research again to remember how many grandfathers before him were priests).

From the 1600's to the 1950s its a chain of Ministers that I descend from. My family made its split with the Catholic Faith during the Reformation.

Anyway, I just thought you would find this amusing, the same argument 400 years later.

a reply to: misskat1

That's an interesting read in your link. History is wonderful. But I could find nothing in the text that would indicate they were Catholic priests. They appear "puritanical". And The Archbishop that's mentioned is most likely not a catholic archbishop.

At any rate, I can see the issue the archbishop had, if he was not baptizing "in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" (Christian baptism)...then those baptisms wouldn't be valid, no matter the denomination.

a reply to: Ignatian
I have other research, he was a priest. I just didnt want to bulk up a bunch of stuff, if you want I can find all that. But, honestly I dont want to. lol I hope you can just take my word for it.

Actually, I would appreciate your prayers. My dearest nephew passed away this weekend. Im heart sick. We all are. He was awaiting his 3rd heart transplant. Im grateful we had him an extra 25 yrs, but its never enough. Im only consoled by the reunion I know he is having with loved ones. So, I think I am on ATS to distract me after many days of grieving.
Thank You

a reply to: misskat1

You have my prayers in your time of grief. I'm sorry for your loss.

The Lord gives, and The Lord takes away. Praise The Lord.

AMDG

a reply to: Ignatian

Your a jesuit? Amdg

a reply to: misskat1

How befitting:-)

Today, July 31st, in the Catholic Church, we celebrate Saint Ignatius Loyola(1491-1556). The Founder of The Jesuits, The Society of Jesus, the largest religious order in The Catholic Church. A fascinating man, with a fascinating conversion story, a true mystic. A very piuous man of God.

Ad majorum dei gloriam!

St Ignatius, pray for us.

(No, I am not a Jesuit...but, I'm just as big a Jesus-Freak tho)

a reply to: Ignatian

There are no coincidences. So, I shall enjoy good historical research and learn the story of Ignatius afternoon. However, I do have a connection that you might find interesting. A connection in the University of Alcala (where Ignatius studied) and the Catholic Church.

Years ago, (like 20) I found an old trunk at the thrift shop. It was really old. At first I thought it was an old Mexican spice rack. A friend who was visiting from Spain, about had a heart attack when he saw it. He told me it was from Spain, and that I needed to research it. Anyway, after years and years of research, I found a match. I created a blog with my research and pictures.
The coat of arms on the front is Cardinal Tavera's (cant remember spelling) The castles on the front are a match for the Segovia. It is a traveling Herbal Medicine Chest with 2 drawers labeled Manna, so I know it belonged to a priest, as well as other clues, the hat, the red cardinal tassels, Its beautiful. it has a lot of drawers. It probably came here during the California Mission Days. Anyway if this sort of thing fascinates you, here is the blog : weirdexperiances.wordpress.com...
Interesting too, everytime I sat down and researched the chest, I would hear mission music, I searched everywhere for the source, to this day I believe it was the chest. My kid all thought it was haunted, so I would find it in the garage a lot. lol

a reply to: misskat1

That is REALLY cool, a very interesting find. I doubt it matters, but I bet that piece is worth some big bucks. (Ok, is my addiction to Antique Roadshow obvious?)

a reply to: Ignatian

I have been applying for tickets for the Road Show for a few years, but I never seem to win them. So, who knows, maybe someday you will see the chest and me on the air.