The Collateral Damage of Austerity

A friday morning drive-by before heading of to my own personal karma:

www.commondreams.org...

This article asks a very good question - one that I think many on this site will understand and have very interesting observations upon.

That Banks, the banking system as we know it, are infallable and without alternative:

“Officials in France and in Brussels said on Monday that they were unhappy and dumbfounded with the no vote, but let it be known that they would hold the door open to the possibility of a compromise between Greece and its creditors.”

Dumbfounded? Why? Because the godlike power of the creditors was insulted?

Mainstream coverage of economic matters — the above quote is from the New York Times — seldom cuts very deep into the world of money, seldom questions who’s in charge, and seldom dares to suggest that an economic system ought to serve humankind rather than vice versa.

Millions (Billions) of people around the world are suffering (not because of 'laziness') but because of the very nature of the Manifest Banking and Economic paradigm.

I always hear people say "This is how it's always been done" "Nothing else will work" and the like.

I'm happy to say that there are some economicists stepping outside of the 'box of fractional reserve' and looking at its flaws in terms of real people not the terms of the "godlike creditors" to paraphrase the article.

Imagine an economic system focused on serving human, and planetary, needs.

Yet in the current dying howl of capitalism, human needs are reduced to frivolous luxuries.

Where’s the profit in good schools and healthy children?

As the profiteers impose austerity on the vulnerable, indebtedness becomes a condition to be mocked. Yet we are all indebted. Our lives depend on the good will of others.

In the wake of World War II, for instance, Germany was forgiven most of its Nazi-era debt. “In the 1950s, Europe was founded on the forgiveness of past debts,”

Thomas Piketty and other economists point out in an open letter to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, published in The Nation. This forgiveness allowed it to make “a massive contribution to post-war economic growth and peace. Today we need to restructure and reduce Greek debt, give the economy breathing room to recover . . .”

The Piketty, et al Open Letter to Chancellor Merkel can be found:

www.thenation.com...

The irony - Germany was built on 'public interest' banking and now leads the rabid dogs of auterity as they were forced to endure in the preamble to WWII.

The article doesn't go far enough and talk about the opportunity of PUBLIC BANKING to benefit working people throughout the world but Ellen Brown does at her website "Web of Debt"

ellenbrown.com...

A few other public banking links:

peter-barnes.org...

Supporters of the Coop Bank—including Ralph Nader, the AFL-CIO, and a network of farmer and consumer cooperatives—looked to it as a practical way to help people help themselves.

This was to be no welfare program, but a businesslike approach to bootstrap development.

Through loans and technical assistance to cooperatives, low- and moderate-income people would gain better access to food, health care, jobs and housing.

The Bank itself, like a large-scale credit union, was to be democratically owned by its borrowers.

With offices thoughout the country, it would be a source of capital for new and sometimes risky cooperatives that were shunned by conventional lenders. Its own initial capital would come from the taxpayers, but except for a one-time subsidy of about $100 million, the public investment would be paid back over 40 years from retained earnings.

This one shares particularly interesting idea:

www.huffingtonpost.com...

An article on the success of North Dakota's public bank (and I know that the fracking boom played a part in North Dakota - however other fracking boom states have not shared in the benefits that ND has):

www.usnews.com...

First, it led the United States in sustaining a strong economy and high employment through the last four years. (note: published in 2012)

Second, it is the only state in the union with a publicly-owned bank.

Many believe the Bank of North Dakota played an important role in stabilizing the state's economy, and they would like to replicate public banks nation-wide. It will be a tough fight, and an important one.

It's a subject worthy of attention and not attention of the 'shoot the s***' type but of real LOCAL practical value to you and me and all our neighbors.

Educate ignorance!!

Off soapbox now.

a reply to: FyreByrd

The whores of the GOP would just as they are ordered to by their loathsome master’s squawk like sick vultures: socialism, socialism.

And the Dems would pretend to be for this bit then go and vote another trade deal of death


Its too late... it’s all over, the politicians have all been bought and paid for and sign sealed and delivered to the money masters ALL of them

a reply to: FyreByrd

…but let it be known that they would hold the door open to the possibility of a compromise between Greece and its creditors.”

Door open, huh? Is that why they closed the banks just before the referendum?

Fiinancial terrorism.

It is time to revive an old Biblical and Jewish tradition

called Jubilee

Where everyone is forgiven all debt

and everyone gets a chance to start over.

This needs to be done worldwide:
first a moritorium on all debt collection by anyone needs to be instituted
then all debt wiped out for everyone and every government on earth

This will hurt the banks and wall street the most.

Yes. Some will be hurt, but a fresh worldwide start is needed.

Then, I would add,
that all governments who had debt
must for a period of 10 years
must spend 50% less than the gross national product (GDP)
or if they spend more than that their debt will be reinstated and be collectable.

I would also add,
that everyone who had debt
must for a period of 10 years
not incur debt up to the level forgiven
for a period of 10 years or the debt will be reinstated and collectable.
(with exceptions for purchase of a home or auto, medical bills, educational loans)

Radical yes.
Save the world from another world wide depression, most likely

Will people do it?
No
Because it is an ancient Biblical practice, and too many around
the world hate the Jewish people.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I love how some have such narrow blinders on in their faith of Socialism, that "Capitalism" is at fault. Capitalism but merely one of the many tools that is being used to push "Global Governance". Let me add, that it just isn't Capitalism, but crooked politicians on both sides of the aisle allowing Austerity to destroy free nations, to put them under the umbrella of Global Governance!

Blame the Banks? The Multi National Corporations? Sure! They are making mad money, but what about the dark side of Socialism that is making people believe those who control the money and power will actually just give it all away because, well, "It's the right thing to do."?

Isn't "entitlement programs" contributing to giving the bankers MORE power? I don't see anyone on either side of the political aisle doing a damn thing to create jobs that can afford a family a "bare bones" decent living. Then we have those demanding a higher minimum wage? What is that going to do but raise the pay of others who have higher job skills, and thus create inflation? Who pays for the "entitlement programs" when governments go broke because they are pissing away money? Then we end up with people wanting to raise taxes against everyone else but them, thus the government begs the Bankers to PRINT MORE money, and whalla, the Bankers STILL win!

Austerity is what will suck the power vacuum right into the hands of those who are wanting a "Global Governance". Crony Capitalism and Socialism are the 2 opposing tools being used to play right into their hands........

Now add in all of the division that is being created by the government, and we have allowed ourselves to be played right into creating the perfect storm! Bankers win, we all lose......

a reply to: grandmakdw

maybe, hopefully I am misunderstanding you...
so if someone has been sane with their debt and refused to take it and only has a $150 credit card charge from the repair they need for the car, will they have a $150 limit now on their debt, but if someone else has been insanely running up their credit cards buying crap at a whim and it adds up to $10,000 their limit is $10,000?
yep sounds fair to me...

here's a little tidbit to add to you list. that the business sector will have some pressure placed on them by the gov't to keep the cost of goods sold and the wages of employees in line so that the people don't need to run up their debt for their basic needs1

originally posted by: grandmakdw
It is time to revive an old Biblical and Jewish tradition

called Jubilee

Where everyone is forgiven all debt

and everyone gets a chance to start over.

This needs to be done worldwide:
first a moritorium on all debt collection by anyone needs to be instituted
then all debt wiped out for everyone and every government on earth

This will hurt the banks and wall street the most.

Yes. Some will be hurt, but a fresh worldwide start is needed.

Then, I would add,
that all governments who had debt
must for a period of 10 years
must spend 50% less than the gross national product (GDP)
or if they spend more than that their debt will be reinstated and be collectable.

I would also add,
that everyone who had debt
must for a period of 10 years
not incur debt up to the level forgiven
for a period of 10 years or the debt will be reinstated and collectable.
(with exceptions for purchase of a home or auto, medical bills, educational loans)

Radical yes.
Save the world from another world wide depression, most likely

Will people do it?
No
Because it is an ancient Biblical practice, and too many around
the world hate the Jewish people.

Thank you, I'd forgotten about Jubilee.

I appreciate your taking the time to add something productive to the discussion.

a reply to: dawnstar


I find this attitude of "I'm sane" so because "You aren't sane"; you should suffer.

You know what - I'm happy when other people get something I don't. I'm happy when others don't have to suffer something I have.mm

How you think, you're state of mind is the only thing you will take with you into the 'hereafter' (however you choose to define it). I try to spend a good about of time working on the place I live (my head) so that I don't have to be angry at other people for the foreseable future.

I practise rejoicing in others good fortune (and if you think it's earned by some sort of merit in all cases, that's a whole other thread) and am saddened by their (often completely out of their control) misfortunes.

THE ONLY THING YOU TAKE WITH YOU AFTER THIS LIFE IS YOUR STATE OF MIND.

And, yes, you do have the ability to think differently and the first step is getting beyond this mind set of I'm right all the time and you're wrong all the time.

Life is unfair. Fairness is for karma and little kids.

I ask you - would you rather:

1) Force (and I use that word deliberately) Greece to impose massive suffering on her citizens?

or

2) Lessen and restructure her debt so that the new government can put it's resources into helping her people?


I use this case rather because - it's widely (and I'm not certain) that Greece's government was less then prudent with it's citizen's wealth.

Forgive the debt completely - or as is likely Greece defaulting on the debt entirely and leaving the European Union - and harm only those instituions and individuals that 'encouraged' Greece's policies in the first place.

Where does the fault lie? In the debtor who needs capital for X,Y, or Z or the creditor who wants (needs) to lend capital in order to make profit?

a reply to: FyreByrd

I have no problem with the idea of a jubilee, I've given up on the idea that they will ever do it, but it solve alot of problems..
my question was if someone has only $150 in debt are they restricted to only being able to incur only $150 in debt after the jubilee while a person who has $10,000 in debt has a restriction of $10,000 before they end up having to pay back what has forgiven for them? I might be misinterpreting what you have written but well that is how I am reading it. In which case, I fail to see the fairness, or the sanity of it... it would be better if there were a set limit as to how much debt one should allowed to accumulate, maybe dependent on income but definately not dependent on how much was forgiven.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: grandmakdw

maybe, hopefully I am misunderstanding you...
so if someone has been sane with their debt and refused to take it and only has a $150 credit card charge from the repair they need for the car, will they have a $150 limit now on their debt, but if someone else has been insanely running up their credit cards buying crap at a whim and it adds up to $10,000 their limit is $10,000?
yep sounds fair to me...

here's a little tidbit to add to you list. that the business sector will have some pressure placed on them by the gov't to keep the cost of goods sold and the wages of employees in line so that the people don't need to run up their debt for their basic needs1

Good addition.

No you are not misunderstanding me. It is a radical solution and some people, like banks are going to hurt, and big business will hurt. Yes it's not "fair" to those like me who are debt free. But the world is running headlong into a financial crash that will hurt everyone in the world. I will give up a little fairness to me personally to save the entire world.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: FyreByrd

I have no problem with the idea of a jubilee, I've given up on the idea that they will ever do it, but it solve alot of problems..
my question was if someone has only $150 in debt are they restricted to only being able to incur only $150 in debt after the jubilee while a person who has $10,000 in debt has a restriction of $10,000 before they end up having to pay back what has forgiven for them? I might be misinterpreting what you have written but well that is how I am reading it. In which case, I fail to see the fairness, or the sanity of it... it would be better if there were a set limit as to how much debt one should allowed to accumulate, maybe dependent on income but definately not dependent on how much was forgiven.

The fairness comes in with the penalties.

If one resumes being a debtor (with the exceptions of house,car, medical, educational)
then one re-incurs all debt
and the debt that was wiped clean will be payable again.
That is a severe penalty, one that people who are not sane with their money will incur, I am certain of that.

a reply to: grandmakdw

we declared bankruptcy when I ended up having to quit my job, so I don't really owe much either. but biggest fear would be that they would try to give me back the house that I've been yelling at the bank to take possession of the last year and a half. we decided we couldn't afford it because we couldn't afford it, and well I still couldn't afford it even if they gave it to me so I don't want it!! it's theres!!

a reply to: FyreByrd

What some are forgetting is that the US is in reality in far worse debt condition than Greece.

The US is on the verge of total and complete economic collapse.

Right now if everyone in the US (man, woman and child) chipped in $80,000, the US would still be in debt.

If 100% of the wealth of all 1%er citizens in the US were confiscated, the US would still be in debt.

Greece is only a little glimpse of what is to come for the US.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: grandmakdw

we declared bankruptcy when I ended up having to quit my job, so I don't really owe much either. but biggest fear would be that they would try to give me back the house that I've been yelling at the bank to take possession of the last year and a half. we decided we couldn't afford it because we couldn't afford it, and well I still couldn't afford it even if they gave it to me so I don't want it!! it's theres!!

With jubilee, no houses would be foreclosed.

If you don't want the house, under jubilee, if you are still the legal owner you could sell it for $1.00 to anyone just to be rid of it if you wanted.

The banks and creditors could not repossess anything.

All debts would be wiped clean.

Not fair at all to me, I am debt free.
But the best for everyone else in the world.

a reply to: grandmakdw
as long as the amount of debt isn't reliant on how much debt they had been forgiven fine. otherwise, the new set of tires that I might need down the line might cost me twice as much when you consider having to pay off the old debt for needing the new debt, while the person with the $10,000 credit card debt could blow through $9,000 before they would even start worrying about it.

a reply to: grandmakdw
well, there are a few charities around that would probably like to have it and at least they would be able to pay off the property taxes. which is what upsets me the most about what the bank is doing with it. not only did they lock us out of it so we can't get access to it's inside and check on things but they leave it to rot while denying the funds to the city.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: grandmakdw
as long as the amount of debt isn't reliant on how much debt they had been forgiven fine. otherwise, the new set of tires that I might need down the line might cost me twice as much when you consider having to pay off the old debt for needing the new debt, while the person with the $10,000 credit card debt could blow through $9,000 before they would even start worrying about it.

Good point, that is why I had some exceptions for things that sensible people need,
one could also include in the exceptions, repair for items owned prior to the jubilee.

We have to do something. Someone will hurt yes, but the vast vast majority will be better and entire populations of entire countries spared from extreme economic collapse, like Greece, and like the US is heading toward very fast.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: grandmakdw
as long as the amount of debt isn't reliant on how much debt they had been forgiven fine. otherwise, the new set of tires that I might need down the line might cost me twice as much when you consider having to pay off the old debt for needing the new debt, while the person with the $10,000 credit card debt could blow through $9,000 before they would even start worrying about it.

Good point, that is why I had some exceptions for things that sensible people need,
one could also include in the exceptions, repair for items owned prior to the jubilee.

We have to do something. Someone will hurt yes, but the vast vast majority will be better and entire populations of entire countries spared from extreme economic collapse, like Greece, and like the US is heading toward very fast.

I suppose the absolute fairest is to set exceptions for repairs to items owned before the Jubilee, houses, cars, medical and educational expenses.

Then penalize everyone who incurs debt within the next 10 years for anything not listed in the exceptions.

We need to do something, and no matter what someone will hurt, and someone will be unfairly treated, but the world is on the brink. If your country implodes, it will be far worse for everyone in the country, your family, your friends, it will look far worse than 1929 and the great depression.

The problem is if you are a lender, why would you lend money in the future if what you are owed could be "forgiven". Forgiven by whom?

a reply to: Edumakated

ten to one even the biggest what we percieve as most profitable businesses have so much debt that if we were to balance the books out tomorrow, they'd be in the red also, so I ain't sure many would lose out. expecially since those big businesses would keep their assetts that they leverage all their profits on to get the loans for.