Abortion and why it's wrong

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: ElectricUniverse
yes human fetus which the prolife crowd insist on calling babies, even when referring to the abortion via the morning after pill.

interesting story for all to read, if they wish.

gawker.com...

If pro lifers got their way and abortion was made illegal that would be

the norm rather than the exception!!

a reply to: eletheia

the thing is, I think some of them wouldn't care, since well, they would gladly risk their lives for the baby's sake, or at least that is what they say, now.... of course they could easily find themselves changing their minds if they were put in that spot...

especially if it is a fact that the baby has only part of it's brain formed and has no chance to live, like was the case with this lady:

rhrealitycheck.org... an-society/

there's really plenty of stories like this, we should consider putting a link to one on all replies we post on threads like this one.

originally posted by: dawnstar
the thing is, I think some of them wouldn't care, since well, they would gladly risk their lives for the baby's sake, or at least that is what they say, now.... of course they could easily find themselves changing their minds if they were put in that spot...

especially if it is a fact that the baby has only part of it's brain formed and has no chance to live, like was the case with this lady:

Natures way .... *spontaneous abortion*, I bet pro. lifers would like to ban

them too .... if they could.

rhrealitycheck.org... an-society/

there's really plenty of stories like this, we should consider putting a link to one on all replies we post on threads like this one.

Don't think it would make any difference pro. lifers only see in one direction!!

a reply to: eletheia
no but it might convince some of the sit on the fencers that there's more to it than just a bunch of irresponsible kids having fun, like the pro life seems to want to portray it as being.

this isn't actually regarding the abortion issue although it is about obamacare which was being discussed..

the newest changes to obamacare in response to the hobby lobby decisions:

rhrealitycheck.org...

Although abortion is not specifically mentioned, it definitely would fall under "Giving woman the right to control the size of their families". While you may find it selfish to not consider the rights of an unborn (unwanted) child, i find it equally selfish to not consider the living conditions of future generations.

As a side note; i specify "unwanted" only as a means to point out the possible ramifications in forcing a woman to give birth to a child which they do not have the mental, emotional, financial, etc. capabilities or even the time required in the proper nurturing of a child. This factor alone will often result in (at minimum), overall neglect of the child, all the way to child abuse (of various types and degrees).

Although the images of aborted fetuses are extremely disturbing, they are nowhere near as disturbing as the images of starving children. Or the cases of physical and sexual abuse. Or the long term affects of neglect. In all honesty, if given the choice, i would choose to not even "be born", rather than "be born" without proper nurturing or possibly into a world of pain and suffering.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: tigertatzen

They are not babies until they are able to breathe on their own after leaving the womb. They are fetuses or embryos until that point. And some people have simply had so many miscarriages that they refuse to say the word "baby" when referring to their fetuses, because the emotional impact won't be as bad if they don't personalize it first, should the pregnancy not have a positive outcome.
...


Didn't it occur to you that this is what I am referring to?...

Of course it is in everyone's mind that they are talking about human fetus, but if you don't say it, if you don't remind people that those fetuses are HUMAN, it makes it easier to make all these claims about them "being like viruses" or "they are not the same as a human being"... etc, etc...

And it is not just about personalizing, but to dehumanize the HUMAN fetus, make it "less than HUMAN".

I think that you have a very skewed view of what "dehumanizing" actually entails. No one is arguing that the fetuses we are referring to are made up of human DNA. In fact, if it were not human fetuses we were discussing we wouldn't even have an argument. You are trying to assert that women who make the decision to terminate a pregnancy views it as a "virus" rather than a replicating mass of human cells, and that is just a silly notion based on absolutely nothing but words you are pulling out of context to try and support your agenda. Of course they know it's human...if it were a virus it'd be a simple decision to make; take a round of anti-virals and bed rest.

You are deliberately insinuating a blanket dynamic that simply does not actually exist, and quite frankly, it makes you appear to be what folks refer to as a "Chicken Little", making wild conjectures fabricated out of thin air to create drama where there was previously none, to inflame the situation because as it currently stands, you are on the losing team in this argument. One might even say that, disturbingly, false idolatry applies here; you are elevating the image of something symbiotic and unformed (unless you're going to tell us that you personally have held these chopped up/ripped apart/ fetal masses and experienced their last moments) that is kept alive artificially and assigning it an importance above all other life.

a reply to: Firewater

Although abortion is not specifically mentioned, it definitely would fall under "Giving woman the right to control the size of their families". While you may find it selfish to not consider the rights of an unborn (unwanted) child, i find it equally selfish to not consider the living conditions of future generations.

As a side note; i specify "unwanted" only as a means to point out the possible ramifications in forcing a woman to give birth to a child which they do not have the mental, emotional, financial, etc. capabilities or even the time required in the proper nurturing of a child. This factor alone will often result in (at minimum), overall neglect of the child, all the way to child abuse (of various types and degrees).

Although the images of aborted fetuses are extremely disturbing, they are nowhere near as disturbing as the images of starving children. Or the cases of physical and sexual abuse. Or the long term affects of neglect. In all honesty, if given the choice, i would choose to not even "be born", rather than "be born" without proper nurturing or possibly into a world of pain and suffering.

I had a patient once, who was 35 weeks pregnant with her first child, and on Medicaid benefits...no insurance. She went to the ob/gyn for a routine checkup and they could no longer locate the fetal heartbeat. They did an ultrasound right away and confirmed that the fetus had expired in utero and was no longer viable, not able to be saved. When something like that happens, the fetus has to come out because it starts to decompose inside the womb and can kill the woman carrying it by sepsis. Rather than take her to the OR, sedate her and remove the dead fetus, the ob/gyn decided to induce labor instead and make her deliver it vaginally.

I stood there and watched this woman and her husband, begging and pleading with the doctors to please, please please not make her deliver her own dead baby, to please put her out and take the baby, but they refused. The patient had no choice but to lay there and allow them to give her Pitocin and rupture her mucous membranes to induce labor. This went on for over 27 hours. After a while, she just sort of "went away" somewhere...no more crying or pleading or begging, just laying there while her body tried to deliver this dead fetus. The nurses were in her face toward the end, telling her she needed to push, but she just lay there. Eventually, they had to use vacuum extraction to get the fetus out.

The worst part was watching the husband plead with her to please just push the baby out, try to get it over with quickly, while continuing to plead with the medical staff to do something to help her and spare her from having to endure what was happening. We all knew too that if this couple had had health insurance, the physician would not have made her deliver that fetus. She would have been sedated with good drugs and taken to the OR to terminate the pregnancy, treated with dignity and compassion...because that is what healthcare is really all about: dollar signs. This happened about 15 years ago, and nothing has improved in that regard in all the time since.

Those kind of stories are the ones we never hear about...the non-choice folks can't paint the picture of a murdering, heartless, evil woman who hates all babies and wants them to die if they have to admit that things like this exist as a perfect example of the need to terminate a pregnancy due to a sudden fetal demise (or something equally as urgent), for both health and emotional reasons. They want to accuse people of "dehumanizing" fetuses, but where is the "humanity" in something like this? Physically restraining and forcing a woman to labor and give birth to a baby that will never draw breath, never cry...is that not "dehumanizing" her? How could she possibly get a clearer message than that: You do not matter. Your opinion does not matter. Your feelings do not matter. Your life does not matter.?

You are right about kids growing up unwanted, too. They often suffer horrific abuse and neglect their entire childhood. They know that they are not wanted or loved. A lot of career criminals out there locked in our prisons or roaming the streets were unwanted children growing up without love or common decency. The cycle of abuse can be difficult to interrupt...the "gift that keeps on giving". Why keep introducing scenarios that perpetuate it, when what we need to do is take care of the unwanted children who are out there right now and give them a way to become productive members of society rather than a burden to it? People simply do not look at the bigger picture, to the future of our species, and that is a mistake.

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: dawnstar

It's a shame the compassionate conservatives can't hear the cry of the living children who have actual mouths to cry out with, but can hear the cries of unborn fetuses who's mouths have not even formed yet.

That is an excellent post. Seriously, you could not possibly have worded that any better...gave me chills.

What in the hell are you two going on about?...

Want to specify what you are talking about?... Contrary to what you might have read I can't read minds...

a reply to: Firewater

Who is talking about forcing women who want to have an abortion to not have it?...

A lot of members seem not to understand that when other members give their "opinion" they are not trying to "force" others to embrace that opinion...

The title of this thread is "Abortion and how wrong it is"... The title is not "Let's force the pro-choice crowd to not have abortions"...

The people who do want to force their views on others are those people who want everyone, even those who see abortion as murder, to be forced to pay for other women's abortions.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

This thread is titled "Why abortion is wrong". I think it's safe to assume that the OP would like to criminalize abortion. I was simply stating that by doing so, in effect you are forcing women to deliver unwanted babies.

a reply to: TechUnique

How many of these unwanted children have you adopted?

As there are 7,000,000,000+ of us, our individual value is pretty low. If you had 7,000,000,000 pennies and you lost 2, would you even know it?

Let's talk reality, of all the people we know, how many can dunk a basket ball? Run the hundred in under 13 seconds? Good at calculus? Balance a checkbook even? Looking at the entire family tree of everyone we know, how many of them are truly exceptional?

Come CLOSE to the definition of ubermensh?

Let's quit sucking our own corks here, when you have 7,000,000,000 of anything 1 of that 7,000,000,000 has no value and offers no value.

There's a greater chance of a god being true... and we all know that there's no god.

Derek

originally posted by: Viesczy
Let's quit sucking our own corks here, when you have 7,000,000,000 of anything 1 of that 7,000,000,000 has no value and offers no value.

There's a greater chance of a god being true... and we all know that there's no god.

Derek

That's some strange logic there... If there was 6,999,999 1lb rocks on the ground and one 1lb nugget of gold, I guarantee you'll go for the gold.

Just like if there was 100 people in a room and one of which was Mozart... I want to talk to Mozart.

a reply to: hellobruce

" Or They Could Grow Up As Another Hitler, or Pol Pot or Stalin etc.... "


Well , at Least you had a Chance to be Born and Grow into a Human Adult , Imagine where you Would be , or Not be Right Now if your Birth Mother Decided to Abort You ? The Problem I see in Today's World is that alot of People seem to be Losing their Humanity through Rationalizations and Selfishness when it comes to the Right to Life of Any Child that is Conceived . Upon All our Deaths , there Will be a Reckoning for the Actions we take in this Life , and I Hope some of Us Realize that before we do something that Cannot be Undone. As for the People you mentioned , their Environment , Upbringing , and Circumstances had an Immense Influence on their Actions as Adults .

a reply to: Viesczy

You are equaling an innocent human life to a penny?...

a reply to: TechUnique



Abortion is wrong to you. You cant speak for anyone else. It is a personal choice.

originally posted by: lifecitizen
a reply to: TechUnique


Abortion is wrong to you. You cant speak for anyone else. It is a personal choice.

Then you are saying that "murder" is only wrong to those people that see it so... So if we use your argument murderers should be allowed to kill people since they don't see it as something wrong.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Viesczy

You are equaling an innocent human life to a penny?...

Abortion isn't about guilt or innocence. It's about the right to autonomy over one's body.

At any rate, if something is capable of causing your death, is it really innocent?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The people who do want to force their views on others are those people who want everyone, even those who see abortion as murder, to be forced to pay for other women's abortions.

"Forced to pay".....ahhh....

So that is your issue!

Always about the money, eh? Interesting.