UK bans teaching of creationism in any school that receives public funding

Since Religious Education is a mandatory subject in the UK, how does this affect the level of indoctrination of a student in any way?

The legislation is a lever to control funding.

a reply to: chr0naut

I am pretty sure you are doing this as a joke now.

You are not even responding to other post simply attempting to bait members who are prety tired of explaining the same thing over and over.

Unless you have a valid point and can both reference this or at least commit to the actual conversation in hand.

a reply to: nonspecific

He/she is welcome in my thread: So which creation myth do you want taught in UK schools science classes?
...I just won't be replying anywhere else tonight, crashing out, maybe just read on my phone in bed for a bit.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: chr0naut

you want this so badly to be a grave injustice, but the fact is, the people of the UK CHOSE this. good luck swinging their vote, im sure they have already had plenty of time to consider. then again, maybe all they did was turn on CNN.

In 1933 the German people elected Hitler & the National Socialists. So much for the mandate of the masses.

Also, it's too late to swing any votes.

As you think my responses have something to do with religion, despite numerous attempts to clarify the issue. I don't think I'll respond any further.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: chr0naut

you want this so badly to be a grave injustice, but the fact is, the people of the UK CHOSE this. good luck swinging their vote, im sure they have already had plenty of time to consider. then again, maybe all they did was turn on CNN.

In 1933 the German people elected Hitler & the National Socialists. So much for the mandate of the masses.

Also, it's too late to swing any votes.

As you think my responses have something to do with religion, despite numerous attempts to clarify the issue. I don't think I'll respond any further.

This is simply silly now come on?

Are you really saying this in an attempt to promote your opinion?

Are you honestly saying that the UK Taking this stance on what can be taught as fact is something that can relate to the rise of the Nazi party?

I think after your comments so far the only thing you have said that is agreeable is that you will not respond any further.

Simply absurd but I respect your right to an opinion.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: stumason

Human rights are precious.

We have honed them over such a long time.

Shame to throw them away.

Please quote the human rights you are referring too? The one's that appease your particular views?

originally posted by: chr0naut

In 1933 the German people elected Hitler & the National Socialists. So much for the mandate of the masses.

Also, it's too late to swing any votes.

As you think my responses have something to do with religion, despite numerous attempts to clarify the issue. I don't think I'll respond any further.

After that, I'd shut up too!

originally posted by: chr0naut
What sort of evidentiary requirement is placed upon enactment of this legislation?

Can it be enacted based purely upon an accusation?

Many words without saying much!

originally posted by: chr0naut
Not suggesting talking about religions. I am suggesting talking about ideas as to how the universe came about. Most theistic descriptions are very brief and you do not have to explain the religious 'fine detail', just the conceptual outline.

So you think opinions on how the universe came about should be shared in a SCIENCE class? How are opinions scientific? So you think it's fair for them to say in a science class, "Some people believe that god caused the big bang"? That's fine as long as they mention that 99% of biologists and astrophysicists do not think this and that it is NOT a position of science. But then again, none of that is scientific, so why teach people's opinions in a science class?

If you advocate for this, surely you advocate for other opinions in regards to science. For example when they are teaching about rain and lightning, they should be able to teach that some people believe Zeus is responsible, right? When they teach about gravity, they must mention that some folks believe in hollow earth and the internal sun that really makes the mass of the earth, rather than the molten core of iron, right? When they teach heliocentrism, surely they must acknowledge that some people still believe the earth is flat and is the center of the universe, right?

The bottom line is that science is not a philosophy class and should not be treated as such. Science class is not about offering an alternative opinion to everything they teach. I know that for you, it's simple, you are creationist and want your philosophy taught as fact to others because it gains you more believers. But, how is that fair to the rest of us that don't believe that stuff? The world has been in a stranglehold from religion for the past 4000 years where folks were executed for going against it. Religion has had it's time in the sun. It's time to move on and acknowledge that personal beliefs are not facts and not science.

A secular teacher, mentions Creation in a science lesson (perhaps in response to a religious student's question) and this is reported to "higher-ups" (Department for Education staff).

The higher-ups choose to prosecute fully under the terms of this legislation and cut (not reduce) the science budget to this school.

The school has 18 teachers and 336 students (UK National averages from 2012 statistics), all are affected by the budget cut.

Slippery slope fallacy. You have no idea that it works or will work like that. If a science teacher answers a student's question, that's one thing. The law is about TEACHING religion AS science. It's very simple. If they do not teach religion or theism as science, then there is no issue. Answering a student's question is not teaching religion as science and in fact I'm sure they are perfectly able to mention that people believe in god, but that's as far as it goes.

Human rights are precious.

We have honed them over such a long time.

Shame to throw them away.

Teaching opinions in science class as facts is a human right? You do realize we're talking about education right? It's not like they are teaching that creationism is wrong, it's just not science. No matter what you say, this fact will not change. So far it seems that only the US bible belt is offended by this legislation in the UK. It happened in the US as well, just not as strictly as it wasn't made into a law that can cut funding. It should, however. Creationism and ID has already been ruled as not science in a court of law in the US as well. It's only a matter of time before they follow suit.

originally posted by: chr0naut


Look, consider this scenario:

A secular teacher, mentions Creation in a science lesson (perhaps in response to a religious student's question) and this is reported to "higher-ups" (Department for Education staff).

Completely over dramatized for effect. There is a massive difference between answering a students query and using a science class as a platform for teaching religious creation as a scientific fact which it is not. This is what is prohibited, teaching religious creation myths as scientific fact in a science class. Are there not religious classes in all or most UK schools anyway? The platform is already in place for teaching the religious aspects to the students. It simply doesn't belong in a science classroom being taught as a scientific fact. in your own famous words... Do you get it?

ETA- Excerpt from the law itself

“The parties recognise that the teaching of creationism is not part of prevailing practice in the English education system, but acknowledge that it is however important that all schools are clear about what is expected in terms of the curriculum which they need to provide. The parties further recognise that the requirement on every academy and free school to provide a broad and balanced curriculum, in any case prevents the teaching of creationism as evidence based theory in any academy or free school.
The secretary of state acknowledges that clauses 2.43 and 2.44 of the Funding Agreement, and clauses 23E and 23G above do not prevent discussion of beliefs about the origins of the Earth and living things, such as creationism, in Religious Education, as long as it is not presented as a valid alternative to established scientific theory.”

The higher-ups choose to prosecute fully under the terms of this legislation and cut (not reduce) the science budget to this school.

The school has 18 teachers and 336 students (UK National averages from 2012 statistics), all are affected by the budget cut.

Educational standards in the school are reduced as teaching resources can no longer be afforded. The grading of the students is therefore negatively affected and the overall rating of the school is reduced in Department for Education listings.

Well done, your one of the first people I can think of in the "Educational Doom Porn Movement". My hat's off to you on resetting the goal posts in such a definitive and highly entertaining fashion!

but in case you missed it above, your frantic pleading is for naught...

The secretary of state acknowledges that clauses 2.43 and 2.44 of the Funding Agreement, and clauses 23E and 23G above do not prevent discussion of beliefs about the origins of the Earth and living things, such as creationism, in Religious Education, as long as it is not presented as a valid alternative to established scientific theory

The effect of this legislation is a mechanism for the Education Department to manipulate its statistics and funding of schools. It has nothing to do with religious indoctrination. If it did, the legislation would apply only to the person who infracted it. The 'punishment' is far broader than the 'crime'.

Is this YOUR personal interpretation or can you provide a citation to support this statement? If not its just more fear mongering because someone lost their human rights to have an opinion. Oh wait... no they didn't

If you are a UK parent, with a child going to a public school, this legislation can negatively affect your child's education arbitrarily (your child need not be in any way associated with the teacher or the particular science class).

Do you get it?

What I get is that you are creating both drama and controversy where it doesn't actually exist by turning this into a human rights violation. Do YOU get it? This law isn't even new. It simply expands the scope in regards to the types of schools it affects to ANY school receiving public funds from tax dollars and to include all schools immediately that weren't already covered. Please demonstrate a single example of your fear mongering doom porn scenario for schools losing their funding since the initial law was passed and then you might have a soap box to stand on. Until then you're simply grandstanding under the guise of concern for school funding when the heart of the matter is your personal proclivities towards both religion AND evolutionary theory because your biggest fears have been addressed by the Sec. of State. Teachers can answer questions, they just can't teach creationism, or YEC or any other unproven "opinion" as an alternative to evolution.

Here's a little more info to digest while you shake off those cold sweats you've been having over a nonexistent concern-

As BHA Faith Schools Campaigner Richy Thompson noted, the reason behind this change was that “every young person is entitled to a high quality, broad and balanced education. This includes in biology, where evolution is a central topic and is vital to understanding how human life came to be. On the other hand, ideas such as young earth creationism should not be taught as scientifically valid for the very simple reason that they are not.”

In response to many who have called me a creationist and/or an idiot.

Firstly, I request that you please read this entire post in entirety, taking time to consider each individual paragraph, before posting a rebuttal. I.e: do not nit pick out of context snippets until after you have embraced an understanding of the whole philosophy.

Please re-read the last sentence of clause 28H "The secretary of state acknowledges that clauses 2.43 and 2.44 of the Funding Agreement, and clauses 23E and 23G above do not prevent discussion of beliefs about the origins of the Earth and living things, such as creationism, in Religious Education, as long as it is not presented as a valid alternative to established scientific theory.”.

That last little exception invalidates all the nice, politically correct, wording at the start of the clause, and most of the placatory politically correct text in the legislation.

Put simply:

1) The legislation does not apply explicitly to science classes. It covers ALL subjects in ALL state funded schools (even religion based ones).

2) It punishes many for the infraction of the one.

3) Even in a religious education class, one cannot teach (impart knowledge or instruct) a particular religiously held belief.

3) There is no clarification as to if it can be invoked based upon hearsay.

The UK legal system is in the process of divesting the UK population of its rights. This is happening simultaneously from many angles. Surveillance, preferential taxation in favor of particular corporates, the acceptance of alternate systems of jurisprudence to name a few. It is all being done in the name of democracy, security and political correctness. Its consequences are opposite.

Please do not insult me by suggesting that I am saying things that I plainly have not said.

Because I am "radically" concerned with the maintenance of a politically moderate view, does not make me a Creationist.

I believe that evolution is a valid description of how we get biodiversity, I just believe that there are more mechanisms than the one (Panspermia, Saltationism, Catastrophism, Horizontal Genetic Transfer, Epigenetics, Continuous Creation and Morphic Resonance are also quite valid theoretical and hypothetical descriptions).

I do NOT believe that God created in a single event over a short period of time and then stopped forever.

I believe God continues to create and direct reality to this very instant.

I believe that we are a "dream in the mind of God", so to speak (there is circumstantial scientific and mathematical evidence that this 'reality' is virtual and, to me, this is compliant with an understanding that there must be an underlying substrate which I call the mind of God).

Please note that I do not have unequivocal scientific evidence of my beliefs by any means. I do have experiential and personal evidence supportive of my faith and beliefs, evidence that I feel is very strong.

But, under this legislation, I would be banned from ever teaching that in ANY UK school (not just secular ones), in ANY subject class (including Religious Education or Philosophy or similar classes).

a reply to: chr0naut

I will ignore your opening and hit you with this.

No one cares about your opinion as regards to this.

I am happy to be wrong on this but will take a hit if needed.

Pleae find me a Uk member or resident that agree's with you opinion.

Just one thats all.

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: chr0naut

I will ignore your opening and hit you with this.

No one cares about your opinion as regards to this.

I am happy to be wrong on this but will take a hit if needed.

Pleae find me a Uk member or resident that agree's with you opinion.

Just one thats all.

You may have a valid point.

Please, if you are a UK resident,who has browsed this thread but have not participated yet and can see why I may be concerned, quote this post using the link above.

Do not do so if you are not from the UK.

Also, do not reply to this post if you think what I have said is irrelevant.

Thank you.

a reply to: chr0naut

originally posted by: chr0naut
Please, if you are a UK resident,who has browsed this thread but have not participated yet and can see why I may be concerned, quote this post using the link above.

Thank you.

Ooh I'm interested to see the UK replies, be funny as if the majority agree with the member from New Zealand, lol.

*Edit*
chr0naut, you entertain me

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: chr0naut
Please, if you are a UK resident,who has browsed this thread but have not participated yet and can see why I may be concerned, quote this post using the link above.

Thank you.

Ooh I'm interested to see the UK replies, be funny as if the majority agree with the member from New Zealand, lol.

I wasn't looking for a majority.

Can I take it that your response means that you see my point (even if you don't agree with it)?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: chr0naut

I will ignore your opening and hit you with this.

No one cares about your opinion as regards to this.

I am happy to be wrong on this but will take a hit if needed.

Pleae find me a Uk member or resident that agree's with you opinion.

Just one thats all.

You may have a valid point.

Please, if you are a UK resident,who has browsed this thread but have not participated yet and can see why I may be concerned, quote this post using the link above.

Do not do so if you are not from the UK.

Thank you.

You sir are what I would call an arse.

If this means that I get a post removed or even barred from this site I cannot and will not retract this statement.

I am unable to converse with you further as my manners dictate so.

You have no basis for your argument other than argument itself and are looking for a fight that simply is simply not here.

As A UK member and someone that actually understands this subject I will wish you a good day and...

Leave it at that eh??

a reply to: chr0naut

As a UK resident, I assure you that no one in the UK gives a flying f*ck.

Your argument has switched and changed so much I don't think even you know what it is you're trying to argue for.

It's not rocket science:

1) Science classes will cater to science

2) RE classes will cater to the various religious beliefs and myths

No one's being "oppressed", no one's human rights are being "infringed", no one's free speech is being "silenced", it's just business as usual in the UK.

This may be a hard pill to swallow for a creationist such as yourself (and yes, you may deny it but we all know your agenda here), this latest ruling is nothing more than a formality. Hardly anyone in this country subscribes to such ludicrous beliefs such as Creationism.

For any Brit here, I assure you the response to this ruling is "oh, I didn't even know that was even a thing. I wonder what;s on the telly tonight?".

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: chr0naut

As a UK resident, I assure you that no one in the UK gives a flying f*ck.

Your argument has switched and changed so much I don't think even you know what it is you're trying to argue for.

It's not rocket science:

1) Science classes will cater to science

2) RE classes will cater to the various religious beliefs and myths

No one's being "oppressed", no one's human rights are being "infringed", no one's free speech is being "silenced", it's just business as usual in the UK.

This may be a hard pill to swallow for a creationist such as yourself (and yes, you may deny it but we all know your agenda here), this latest ruling is nothing more than a formality. Hardly anyone in this country subscribes to such ludicrous beliefs such as Creationism.

For any Brit here, I assure you the response to this ruling is "oh, I didn't even know that was even a thing. I wonder what;s on the telly tonight?".

A: Trollin for fun, fair dues.

2: Religious nut that thinks he/she is right.

D: Aliens.