UK bans teaching of creationism in any school that receives public funding

Is this argument still going on with the crazy, bible thumping Yank?

Word of advice....

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: chr0naut

The school employees broke the law, you can't blame anybody but them for the funding getting pulled. Now they face the consequences. What you are doing is like saying that a law against stealing is responsible for those who break it. Oh man, that anti thievery law totally has an agenda against thieves! Well, of course it does, because stealing is detrimental to society. In the same light teaching a world view as an alternative to science is counter intuitive and goes against what science actually is. There should be a stronger agenda against this type of behavior, if you ask me. Do you think the human rights of thieves are being violated because there are laws against stealing?

According to the Association of Colleges, the Department for Education is currently experiencing a budgetary shortfall of approximately 600 million pounds, which is estimated to rise to 4.6 billion pounds by 2018-19.

"HM Treasury has made no commitment to protect the schools or education budget. The school budget (for 4 to 16-year-olds) has been ring-fenced by the Coalition Government between 2010 and 2015" (quoted from the AoC report).

The Department for Education's internal review of 2012 stated that they would reduce costs by 50% before 2015. They proposed that this would be achieved by "consolidating the accounts of thousands of academies".

Closing schools (especially infant free schools which have the additional budgetary burden of providing meals) due to funding issues has been discussed openly as a possibility by the Department for Education.

originally posted by: stumason
Is this argument still going on with the crazy, bible thumping Yank?

If you are referring to me, then I must inform you I am not now, nor never have been, an American.

New Zealand and Australia are sovereign, democratic nations under the British Empire (I am a citizen of one and a permanent resident of the other). They are island nations, with Westminster systems of government, just like yours.

... well, I did quote from someone who in turn, quoted from the Bible, so perhaps I am a Bible thumper, just not as hard as a full-on one. Perhaps I am a Bible nudger.

But, perhaps you were referring to mamabeth, it is hard to tell from your post. If you use the buttons at the top to reply or quote, it automatically includes the information.

Excellent. Creationism belongs in Sunday School, not in Public School.

If Christians want these beliefs taught to their children, then they should be funding the schools that teach them.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: chr0naut

Please stop pretending you know anything about the uk school system outside of your frantic googling to try and fit reality to your ridiculous viewpoint.

Because English schools are not like any other schools, anywhere else?

As a parent, I have experienced first hand the closure of one of my children's schools, due to funding issues unrelated to this thread topic. It badly disrupted their education and was highly inconvenient to the whole family, not to mention the additional financial burden it placed upon us. The school in question followed the Cambridge curriculum, so I have direct experience of that.

Right now, I am employed by a number of schools and I have a background in politics and academia. I assure you that I am not ignorant of the issues facing educators and government.

I did use Google, after bastion quoted from a report of OFSTED closing Durham Free School. I know of no better way to get current information of what is happening in other parts of the world.

Perhaps The Guardian and Telegraph newspapers have an agenda too, as they have a number of articles critical of UK education budget and recent school closures.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Right now, I am employed by a number of schools and I have a background in politics and academia. I assure you that I am not ignorant of the issues facing educators and government.

Now you got me worried... mix between someone with your views and education can't be anyway good for children.

What those education institution teach? Ignorance and anti-education??

a reply to: chr0naut

But it sounds like those funding issues have zero to do with this law or creationism being pulled from the science curriculum.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: chr0naut
Right now, I am employed by a number of schools and I have a background in politics and academia. I assure you that I am not ignorant of the issues facing educators and government.

Now you got me worried... mix between someone with your views and education can't be anyway good for children.

What those education institution teach? Ignorance and anti-education??

Those schools teach the standard, secular, national educational curriculum.

I do not agree with the teaching of only the literalist view of Biblical Creation as a science subject. I believe that your assumption that I do is based upon the fact that you are filtering what you read in my posts through personal prejudice.

The Bible is NOT a science textbook. It is a book of ethics, history and religion. It uses metaphor and allegory to reveal its lessons. Nor are its concepts entirely devoid of scientific support (the Big Bang theory being supportive of the concept of a beginning to the universe and Holographic virtual universe models, with the error correction that has been observed, suggest an intelligent God simulating it). The oft repeated opinion that there is no scientific support is simply untrue and ignorant.

I do disagree with legislation that mandates against and prosecutes the expression of an opinion.

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: chr0naut

But it sounds like those funding issues have zero to do with this law or creationism being pulled from the science curriculum.

1. The legislation controls funding (it is part of the DfE Funding Agreement).
   
2. The legislation does not teach validated science, or enforce the teaching of validated science subjects.
   
3. The legislation prosecutes the expression of an opinion (even in a Religious Education class where one may reasonably expect that opinion to be discussed).
   
4. The legislation does not apply specifically to a Science class but to all classes in all subjects.
   
5. The legislation closes schools.
   

Here’s the bottomline folks: If Creationism is taught in public schools, how would students ever learn chemistry, physics and biology? Creationism is the antithesis of science as we know it – the science that we use every day in every way – from your light bulb to the MRI you require to diagnose a disease process.

So what does a school do? Shut down their science labs? In a hypothetical school, first period may be chemistry. And today’s lesson plan is to teach and demonstrate radioactive decay and isotopes. Second period is Creationism, which contradicts everything students learned in first period!!! How does that work? It’s illogical.

I know some of you don’t get it. But that’s why we have sensible governments and educational administrations who understand that the real world of science and technology i.e. the one you’re posting on here at ATS, is the one that students should be learning. And not dinosaurs walking with humans, the universe created in 6 days.

I still find it amazing that this thread exists. One would think that logic would prevail…..
Enough said about that….

originally posted by: Phantom423
Here’s the bottomline folks: If Creationism is taught in public schools, how would students ever learn chemistry, physics and biology? Creationism is the antithesis of science as we know it – the science that we use every day in every way – from your light bulb to the MRI you require to diagnose a disease process.

So what does a school do? Shut down their science labs? In a hypothetical school, first period may be chemistry. And today’s lesson plan is to teach and demonstrate radioactive decay and isotopes. Second period is Creationism, which contradicts everything students learned in first period!!! How does that work? It’s illogical.

I know some of you don’t get it. But that’s why we have sensible governments and educational administrations who understand that the real world of science and technology i.e. the one you’re posting on here at ATS, is the one that students should be learning. And not dinosaurs walking with humans, the universe created in 6 days.

I still find it amazing that this thread exists. One would think that logic would prevail…..
Enough said about that….

Creationism has been taught in English schools beside science, for centuries. Somehow science survived.

a reply to: chr0naut

lol! You mean the centuries before evolution was discovered? The ones where state schooling didn't even exist?

I would have thought that given how low your illogical arguments have sunk, surely it must be upwards from here. Apparently not.

But please, keep lecturing us Brits on the merits and cons of our educational system and school curriculum. I do enjoy it when non-nationals with not even half a clue stick their oar into something they have no knowledge or experience of.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Those schools teach the standard, secular, national educational curriculum.

I try to imagine if I would have to work in school where they teach creationism... must be bit hard for you, isn't it??

originally posted by: chr0naut
I do not agree with the teaching of only the literalist view of Biblical Creation as a science subject. I believe that your assumption that I do is based upon the fact that you are filtering what you read in my posts through personal prejudice.

What else can I base my assumption on - except your posts - and you were very clear what is your opinion... no prejudice required, we are entitled to have an opinion...

originally posted by: chr0naut
The Bible is NOT a science textbook. It is a book of ethics, history and religion.

Ethical?? How?? By suggesting to love God more then your kids?? How historical when today for example we know that great flood has never happen. Bible is collection of folklore tales, some of them might be correct, many of them are not much different then rest of fairy tales... compared to ancient people - there is some ethics... but it is outdated by today standard, from equality of sexes to reproductive rights...

originally posted by: chr0nautIt uses metaphor and allegory to reveal its lessons. Nor are its concepts entirely devoid of scientific support (the Big Bang theory being supportive of the concept of a beginning to the universe and Holographic virtual universe models, with the error correction that has been observed, suggest an intelligent God simulating it). The oft repeated opinion that there is no scientific support is simply untrue and ignorant.

Voodoo science again??

originally posted by: chr0naut
I do disagree with legislation that mandates against and prosecutes the expression of an opinion.

So if my opinion is that 1 + 1 is 3, I should be able to teach children what is my opinion... even all points that math is quite simple and has correct answer... please, explain that to me... how is misleading kids an opinion???

a reply to: chr0naut

Which schools exactly?? Is it taught in New York, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City public school??

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: chr0naut

But it sounds like those funding issues have zero to do with this law or creationism being pulled from the science curriculum.

1. The legislation controls funding (it is part of the DfE Funding Agreement).

The legislation controls all school funding? No it doesn't. It only pulls funding for schools that break the law.

The legislation does not teach validated science, or enforce the teaching of validated science subjects.

Yes, obviously a law cannot teach anything, it is a law, not a person. The law regulates what can legally be taught as science.

The legislation prosecutes the expression of an opinion (even in a Religious Education class where one may reasonably expect that opinion to be discussed).

No it doesn't. It prosecutes people who teach religion as an alternative to science. It has nothing to do with expressing opinions. It has to do with them being taught as fact.

The legislation does not apply specifically to a Science class but to all classes in all subjects.

Yes and it specifically says that you can't teach religion as an alternative to science.. IN ANY CLASS, because it's not an alternative to science. It's a worldview.

The legislation closes schools.

That break the law.

(the Big Bang theory being supportive of the concept of a beginning to the universe and Holographic virtual universe models, with the error correction that has been observed, suggest an intelligent God simulating it). The oft repeated opinion that there is no scientific support is simply untrue and ignorant.

BB theory is not supportive of the concept of a beginning as the energy was already there prior. Please post the scientific supported evidence you are referring to. You can't "suggest" an intelligent god simulating anything without evidence of that god existing. What error correction are you talking about, DNA?

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: chr0naut
Those schools teach the standard, secular, national educational curriculum.

I try to imagine if I would have to work in school where they teach creationism... must be bit hard for you, isn't it??

originally posted by: chr0naut
I do not agree with the teaching of only the literalist view of Biblical Creation as a science subject. I believe that your assumption that I do is based upon the fact that you are filtering what you read in my posts through personal prejudice.

What else can I base my assumption on - except your posts - and you were very clear what is your opinion... no prejudice required, we are entitled to have an opinion...

originally posted by: chr0naut
The Bible is NOT a science textbook. It is a book of ethics, history and religion.

Ethical?? How?? By suggesting to love God more then your kids?? How historical when today for example we know that great flood has never happen. Bible is collection of folklore tales, some of them might be correct, many of them are not much different then rest of fairy tales... compared to ancient people - there is some ethics... but it is outdated by today standard, from equality of sexes to reproductive rights...

originally posted by: chr0nautIt uses metaphor and allegory to reveal its lessons. Nor are its concepts entirely devoid of scientific support (the Big Bang theory being supportive of the concept of a beginning to the universe and Holographic virtual universe models, with the error correction that has been observed, suggest an intelligent God simulating it). The oft repeated opinion that there is no scientific support is simply untrue and ignorant.

Voodoo science again??

originally posted by: chr0naut
I do disagree with legislation that mandates against and prosecutes the expression of an opinion.

So if my opinion is that 1 + 1 is 3, I should be able to teach children what is my opinion... even all points that math is quite simple and has correct answer... please, explain that to me... how is misleading kids an opinion???

I never said that those schools teach creationism. I don't believe that they do now, have in the past, or will in the future. That is something that you have assumed. Do you have the capability to think past an Evolution vs Creationism dichotomy to other issues?

Your also seem to like to arguing by citing absurd scenarios. We are discussing real world legislation in real world situations. Can you please speak to that, not to the voices in your head.

From the outset I have suggested that the legislation raises rights issues and functionally can be used to control finances and close schools.

That five schools have been closed due to this legislation (some showing above average academic results), since the legislation came into force, indicates that my concerns are valid.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: chr0naut

lol! You mean the centuries before evolution was discovered? The ones where state schooling didn't even exist?

I would have thought that given how low your illogical arguments have sunk, surely it must be upwards from here. Apparently not.

But please, keep lecturing us Brits on the merits and cons of our educational system and school curriculum. I do enjoy it when non-nationals with not even half a clue stick their oar into something they have no knowledge or experience of.

Sorry, but science existed before evolution was posited. Evolution is only one subject among very many.

However, Darwin published "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, more than a century an a half ago.

Up until the implementation of this legislation, creationism and science have been taught along side each other in English schools. There has been no catastrophe. The argument that it will confuse students and get them to turn from science is absurd and historically unfounded.

The countries that I have lived and worked in are current members of the Commonwealth of Nations, set up after the end of the British Empire (which ended with the handover of Hong Kong to China, according to Prince Phillip) and the end of the British Commonwealth (which was ended by the London Declaration of 1949, when the Commonwealth of Nations was established).

Our governments and social systems were originally set up under British colonial rule and are mostly unchanged as they are functional and have now been embedded into our constitutions and statutes, the only major changes being the breaking of links of control to the UK. They are now independent, sovereign states.

As such, I believe that I can rightly comment upon a bit of English legislation in an international public forum.

"Brits" are no longer the ivory tower rulers of the empire. You are a group of islands off the edge of Europe and also a part of a larger world.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Which schools exactly?? Is it taught in New York, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City public school??

How would I know anything much about American schools (except from the media)? I am not American.

a reply to: chr0naut

Are you still at this!

Creedence for sticking with it sir.

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: chr0naut

Are you still at this!

Creedence for sticking with it sir.

A thank you to you (I think).

Cheerz anyway!