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In quantum mechanics, quantum decoherence is the loss of coherence or ordering of the phase angles between the components of a system in a quantum superposition. One consequence of this dephasing is classical or probabilistically additive behavior. Decoherence occurs when a system interacts with its environment in a thermodynamically irreversible way. This prevents different elements in the quantum superposition of the total system's wavefunction from interfering with each other. Decoherence was first introduced 1970 by the German physicist H. Dieter Zeh and has been a subject of active research since the 1980s.[1]
Decoherence does not generate actual wave function collapse. It only provides an explanation for the observation of wave function collapse, as the quantum nature of the system "leaks" into the environment. That is, components of the wavefunction are decoupled from a coherent system, and acquire phases from their immediate surroundings. A total superposition of the global or universal wavefunction still exists (and remains coherent at the global level), but its ultimate fate remains an interpretational issue. Specifically, decoherence does not attempt to explain the measurement problem. Rather, decoherence provides an explanation for the transition of the system to a mixture of states that seem to correspond to those states observers perceive. Moreover, our observation tells us that this mixture looks like a proper quantum ensemble in a measurement situation, as we observe that measurements lead to the "realization" of precisely one state in the "ensemble".
One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.
It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks.
—Erwin Schrödinger, Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik (The present situation in quantum mechanics), Naturwissenschaften
(translated by John D. Trimmer in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society)
No outside observer is needed, just put a camera inside the box and the camera will record what happened before the box was opened.
originally posted by: neoholographic
Decoherence doesn't answer the question. When does the cat or the radioactive decay decide to be in one state or the other? How can it decide without an outside observer interacting with the information inside the box?
I share Steve Hawking’s impulse “to reach for my gun” (ref. [2], p. 120) whenever Schrodinger’s cat story is told. This cat story is notorious. It requires one to accept that a cat, which can be in innumerable different states, can be represented by a two-state wavefunction, a bit of nonsense which Schrodinger himself originated. However, a movie camera installed in the box containing the cat would record a cat that is alive until the unpredictable moment that the radioactive nucleus decays opening the bottle containing cyanide thus killing the cat.
Of course Einstein had never read ATS because it didn't exist yet when he was alive, but he wouldn't have been able to say that of some of the more extreme viewpoints on ATS who missed the point of the thought experiment and don't realize the obvious truth of what Einstein stated, that the cat is alive or dead regardless of any outside observation. It's really unfortunate some people have missed that obvious point so badly.
Nobody really doubts that the presence or absence of the cat is something independent of the act of observation.
Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes:
Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
No outside observer is needed, just put a camera inside the box and the camera will record what happened before the box was opened.
originally posted by: neoholographic
Decoherence doesn't answer the question. When does the cat or the radioactive decay decide to be in one state or the other? How can it decide without an outside observer interacting with the information inside the box?
Critique of "Quantum Enigma: Physics encounters Consciousness"
I share Steve Hawking’s impulse “to reach for my gun” (ref. [2], p. 120) whenever Schrodinger’s cat story is told. This cat story is notorious. It requires one to accept that a cat, which can be in innumerable different states, can be represented by a two-state wavefunction, a bit of nonsense which Schrodinger himself originated. However, a movie camera installed in the box containing the cat would record a cat that is alive until the unpredictable moment that the radioactive nucleus decays opening the bottle containing cyanide thus killing the cat.
originally posted by: Kashai
"How can the wave function be physical? How can anything physical be in a pure state?"
What potential exist that the human condition has an effect upon the wave function?
How is Human and Animal DNA, as an example? In relation to its order. Interact in a system that conservative scientist claim is random, upon the grand scale of everything?
In reality Chaos theory is specific in relation to the conclusion, that perceived random systems, at the grand scale, are actually Non- Random.
Decoherence and Death seem to have something in common and what separates them perpetually seems to be Time.
Any thoughts?
originally posted by: neoholographic
Here's some more about decoherence.
Decoherence does not claim to provide a mechanism for the actual wave function collapse; rather it puts forth a reasonable mechanism for the appearance of wavefunction collapse. The quantum nature of the system is simply "leaked" into the environment so that a total superposition of the wavefunction still exists, but exists — at least for all practical purposes[23] — beyond the realm of measurement.[24] Of course by definition the claim that a merged but unmeasurable wavefunction still exists cannot be proven experimentally.
While decoherence explains why a quantum system begins to obey classical probability rules after interacting with its environment (due to the suppression of the interference terms when applying Born's probability rules to the system), it does not explain what an observation actually is. Thus, it does not explain why the environment is seen to be in one definite state rather than in a superposition of states.
en.wikipedia.org...
This is what I call the MATERIALIST DILEMMA.
First, trying to use decoherence as a scientific theory to explain observed evidence is ASININE. It clearly shows the materialist are desperate. Science clearly shows Consciousness creates "reality" and the universe is fine-tuned for life.
In the face of this, materialist don't bring us anything scientific just fantasy.
If a person started a thread that said God created the universe, the first thing materialist would say is prove it. They would say show me the evidence.
Now they're faced with experiments that show materialism is a pipe dream, they're willing to accept a global superposition of the wave function THAT STILL EXISTS BUT IS BEYOND THE REALM OF MEASUREMENT. It still exists but cannot be proven experimentally.
Again, this is just nonsense and utter hypocrisy because as soon as someone talks anything materialist don't agree with, the first thing they say is that's not science or where's the experiment and now they're off on fantasy island because they want to hold on to their material beliefs.
Secondly, it begins to obey classical probability rules AFTER INTERACTING WITH IT'S ENVIRONMENT!! Exactly what I said. If you have a system in a box like a cat that isn't interacting with the outside environment, how can decoherence occur???? IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHAT AN OBSERVATION ACTUALLY IS.
originally posted by: dragonridr
originally posted by: neoholographic
Here's some more about decoherence.
Decoherence does not claim to provide a mechanism for the actual wave function collapse; rather it puts forth a reasonable mechanism for the appearance of wavefunction collapse. The quantum nature of the system is simply "leaked" into the environment so that a total superposition of the wavefunction still exists, but exists — at least for all practical purposes[23] — beyond the realm of measurement.[24] Of course by definition the claim that a merged but unmeasurable wavefunction still exists cannot be proven experimentally.
While decoherence explains why a quantum system begins to obey classical probability rules after interacting with its environment (due to the suppression of the interference terms when applying Born's probability rules to the system), it does not explain what an observation actually is. Thus, it does not explain why the environment is seen to be in one definite state rather than in a superposition of states.
en.wikipedia.org...
This is what I call the MATERIALIST DILEMMA.
First, trying to use decoherence as a scientific theory to explain observed evidence is ASININE. It clearly shows the materialist are desperate. Science clearly shows Consciousness creates "reality" and the universe is fine-tuned for life.
In the face of this, materialist don't bring us anything scientific just fantasy.
If a person started a thread that said God created the universe, the first thing materialist would say is prove it. They would say show me the evidence.
Now they're faced with experiments that show materialism is a pipe dream, they're willing to accept a global superposition of the wave function THAT STILL EXISTS BUT IS BEYOND THE REALM OF MEASUREMENT. It still exists but cannot be proven experimentally.
Again, this is just nonsense and utter hypocrisy because as soon as someone talks anything materialist don't agree with, the first thing they say is that's not science or where's the experiment and now they're off on fantasy island because they want to hold on to their material beliefs.
Secondly, it begins to obey classical probability rules AFTER INTERACTING WITH IT'S ENVIRONMENT!! Exactly what I said. If you have a system in a box like a cat that isn't interacting with the outside environment, how can decoherence occur???? IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHAT AN OBSERVATION ACTUALLY IS.
That's because you don't understand information. Information can be anything attained about a system. The only rule that causes people a problem is we cant observe more than 1 state at a time. IN QM I am restricted to either or the other properties don't change just because I can't see them. But this is where probabilities come into the math. In QM we can use probabilities to deduce outcomes independent of observation.
When we say something is in a superposition it simply means we can have multiple probabilities based on the information we obtained. Through QM we can use these probabilities to determine what will happen. This isn't some kind of mystic mumbo jumbo where the universe doesn't exist or with out us it wouldn't it was here long before we were and will be here long after us.
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