Senate votes down USA Freedom Act, putting bulk surveillance powers in jeopardy

a reply to: FurvusRexCaeli

Actually I pretty much figure every time I blink someone, somewhere records it. I live my life knowing this and go about my day.

But, I think the NSA needs to mind its own beeswax.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: sageturkey

I hope you like it there...personally I would not be caught dead in N Korea!

Ah, the old 'I know you are, but what am I?' defense...

I'm sure you're aware that my intention was to point out the fact that oppressive nations such as North Korea keep their people under constant state surveillance - and that anyone who would acquiesce to such treatment in a free country, well...
Ben Frankiln's quote comes to mind: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

originally posted by: pikestaff
I'm wondering if the NSA spies on itself? the Pentagon? the White House? Breton Woods gang? The CIA? The Bilderburgers?
The banksters?

They do. Remember Petrayus? He was caught in part by being spied on.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

I remember people being outraged and defiant. Now they're used to it, that's how you normalize a police state. Such an obedient population..

I do agree. I think this is exactly why this thing has been dragged out over such a long period of time. They haven't really been abusing the information they're collecting because it lulls the public to sleep. People figure they've been sucking all this stuff up for over a decade and they aren't abusing it yet, it will never happen. People eventually stop paying attention (and with the short attention span the public has to start with, that doesn't take long).

Anyway, yeah. Incrementalism is the game they're playing. People who talk about this thing in terms of Stalin and Hitler are really doing us a disservice. It's not going to be like that. They're not going to march like Nazis. They're going to sneak in the back door while everyone is asleep.

But whatever they do, by the time they make themselves really obvious, they will certainly be seen by just about everyone as the lesser of all evils. Who's going to care about being spied upon by a supposedly benevolent protector when they see innocent people getting beheaded on TV every day?

a reply to: beezzer

And furthermore we had Clapper lying or in politicalese 'miss spoke' to congress saying they did not collect all the stuff we now know they do..

My concern is if they (NSA, CIA, FBI, Et Al) do not get their way watch a big false flag event just so they can say, "See we told you"! Standby for Patriot act with bigger better steroids if such a thing can exist..

Susan Lindauer - Extreme Prejudice - Cambridge, MA 10/2/12 youtu.be...

a reply to: Maxmars

I applaud Rand Paul - he has lead the charge and he has my support

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Maxmars

Really, I don't know what the big fuss is all about...I don't care if they read my emails or eavesdrop on my conversations. I do not have anything to hide. Hell, they may even learn something useful. the only people that have a real problem with this are the ones trying to hide stuff. I say eavesdrop away and maybe catch some crooks or pedophiles or whatever!

It is about balance of power. No one person or institution should poses to much.

I believe your founding fathers went to great lengths to ensure that. I am not American, but as I understand your constitution (heck, your declaration of independence too) it is written around the idea that government should govern (as opposed to rule as ruler) and thus never poses the means to control the people.

People should should poses the means to control government - hence the second amendment and the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

But hey, what do I know; as I said I'm not American.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Maxmars

Really, I don't know what the big fuss is all about...I don't care if they read my emails or eavesdrop on my conversations. I do not have anything to hide. Hell, they may even learn something useful. the only people that have a real problem with this are the ones trying to hide stuff. I say eavesdrop away and maybe catch some crooks or pedophiles or whatever!

Ah, it appears you have faith.

The reality is that if the government were an "object" your take on surveillance would be quite valid.

You believe that the nature of the activity is impersonal and systemic. Of course, in theory it would be, if in fact, it were a machine which lacked the foibles of human whimsy. If the "system" were simply filtering out patterns of activity, for example..., a giant differential calculator simply looking for the most likely signs of crime or malfeasance, then I would agree with you..., but alas I cannot.

Once the political thespians got their "hands" on the ability to directly affect national intelligence management the process completely changed. They were so successful they even created a new gigantic organization (of course we payed for - and still are - paying for it) called the Department of Homeland Defense... they institutionalized their success. Now you have rampant spending of billions to further secure the welfare and safety of the political elite.

Now politicians rule the intelligence apparatus. And they ensured that they will be the final deciders of how our money is spent to 'secure' the nation. He who spends the money gets to decide "how" the products of intelligence gathering are used.

So it was thus that the window for terrible governance was blasted open by the opportunists in government 'leadership.'

So rather than an impersonal program looking for behavior which indicates evil intent; we have a surveillance tool that any politically appointed hack can do with as he or she pleases. Oversight is a joke - it was purposefully gutted by the establishment to allow them the free reign which has produced so much intelligence..., all of it about their own legacy of malfeasance. And of course, being witness to such leaks as we all have; it should be clear that they are not using this to advance our nation and our people, but to engender a new chapter to their legacy.... to sell access to, and empower, corporate endeavors which fuel their own personal wealth and well-being.

Oddly, rather than speak of that truth, we bemoan the tools which are being freely given to non-public servants... tools which they have demonstrably used to perpetuate the separation and elevation of their "class" into super-citizens.

It isn't my innocence that I protest..., it is the unquestionable "right" of a third party to have access to the details of my life... as if I were a product to peddle. I'm afraid since Jimmy Carter's safeguards against abuse were demolished by those who came after; we have failed to observe what has been going on... and apparently are still failing to see the trees for the forest.

In my mind, this isn't about privacy but power to unilaterally apply scrutiny where the scrutinizing persons themselves are protected from any accountability.... because they say so. Because somehow, it's about little insignificant "me" and my "pointless" privacy.

No one should hold such power.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Maxmars

Really, I don't know what the big fuss is all about...I don't care if they read my emails or eavesdrop on my conversations. I do not have anything to hide. Hell, they may even learn something useful. the only people that have a real problem with this are the ones trying to hide stuff. I say eavesdrop away and maybe catch some crooks or pedophiles or whatever!

Maybe they should have prevented the Boston bombing a couple years ago then. The problem is they are violating our rights. If they would actually prevent these things, I believe you would have more people that agree with you. But instead they spy on us and it still doesn't prevent a terrorist attack.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Maxmars

Really, I don't know what the big fuss is all about...I don't care if they read my emails or eavesdrop on my conversations. I do not have anything to hide. Hell, they may even learn something useful. the only people that have a real problem with this are the ones trying to hide stuff. I say eavesdrop away and maybe catch some crooks or pedophiles or whatever!

The biggest threat to freedom anywhere/everywhere is apathy.

Apathy is just laziness. If your too lazy to take control of your life, somebody else will. That is the meaning of losing your freedom. Somebody other than you directing you how you mustlive your life, or in the worse case senario, if you can continue to live at all.

I thought the PA came about b/c we were under attack, and need to preserve the continuity of government?

Are we still under attack?

Going back under my rock...

It's been well established that all the additional police powers granted by the war on terrorism and the Patriot Act have been largely just used to catch drug dealers.

How the War on Drugs and the War on Terror Merged Into One Disastrous War on All Americans

a reply to: Maxmars

While this sounds good and the best effort since the Patriot act gave free reign to the creation of the NSA and their data mining rights, we are not stopping anything, for what I have read the NSA is not just one agency with people in one building collecting private peoples information but it's really a community of about seventeen domestic agencies collecting such information that nobody really can tell to whom or which groups is then sold to, beside the eye partners globally.

The NSA has grown into such a complicated and large partner surveillance groups that no longer is limited to US alone.

Will killing the patriot act will kill this complicated data mining? not in your wildest dream.

a reply to: Maxmars

Let's hope they don't vote for it on the 31st. For now it is good news.

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: Maxmars

While this sounds good and the best effort since the Patriot act gave free reign to the creation of the NSA and their data mining rights, we are not stopping anything, for what I have read the NSA is not just one agency with people in one building collecting private peoples information but it's really a community of about seventeen domestic agencies collecting such information that nobody really can tell to whom or which groups is then sold to, beside the eye partners globally.

The NSA has grown into such a complicated and large partner surveillance groups that no longer is limited to US alone.

Will killing the patriot act will kill this complicated data mining? not in your wildest dream.

Once you make it illegal, it becomes difficult to justify funding which severely cuts down on how it can be used. Furthermore, following the chain of evidence means one can sometimes defend themselves in court based on illegally obtained information.

It's not perfect but it does make a big difference.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Maxmars

Really, I don't know what the big fuss is all about...I don't care if they read my emails or eavesdrop on my conversations. I do not have anything to hide. Hell, they may even learn something useful. the only people that have a real problem with this are the ones trying to hide stuff. I say eavesdrop away and maybe catch some crooks or pedophiles or whatever!

Not having anything to hide is not a good reason to allow yourself to be scrutinized at the level the NSA wants to scrutinize you, simply because they have already abused that power, and they will continue to abuse the powers they have. This abuse is already apparent in many ways, like political targeting.

If Obama or some future president want to "use" the NSA or another agency like the IRS to target and punish opponents now like they have, and are allowed to continue, what kinds of abuse might they try to do in the future?

Never give a bully a bigger club to beat you with

a reply to: Maxmars

When things like this become legal you know tyranny is knocking at the door. I love the names....Patriot-freedom act......Really.



The people are waking up and waking up fast. These acts are unconstitutional and if the supreme court says they are legal the supreme court is bought and paid for.

a reply to: Aazadan

That is a the problems, the NSA is not new it went under other agencies before taking hold on its own under the patriot act, that was went it was public knowledge and under the defense budget, we do have a under the table government budgets.

originally posted by: JHumm
Does anyone really believe that the NSA is going to stop? They have been doing things like this illegally forever and are probably laughing at congress and the American people if they believe that it is going to stop anything that the NSA does. ..

Hell they been doing it since the days when ma bell was king. That was telephone for the under 35 crowd. They been doing it with the library too. They been doing it with the post office longer.

I for one don't think it is ever going to stop. They have been doing it for well over 100 years.

The new kid on the block is the ACA with it's data hub. Not much ever gets said about it though.