Truly, truly; You must be born anew

a reply to: DISRAELI

Nicodemus finds himself baffled. “How can this be?” These things will be incomprehensible until he can lift his mind away from the material world.

Jesus knows us so intimately and knows our heart and knows our mind. He is patient, he is measured in his dealing with each of us. He invites those who doubt and come to him to examine and to think, he does not demand or condemn. He teaches, he coaches us into obedience.

He is not bothered by our ignorance, no question is too stupid, for he knows we were spiritually dead.

How beautiful and powerful the metaphor of birth to illustrate a new beginning.

Great thread.

“So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:16-17‬ ‭NLT‬‬

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: wasaka
When Jesus says, "This is the verdict" one would do well to pay attention. Tell me, what you think this means in the context of being born "anew" and help me understand this... what does it mean to come into the Light?

A very good question.
My first thought is that "staying away from the light" would mean "attempting to evade the scrutiny of God's critical eye".
So "coming to the light" must be the opposite. Allowing God to examine your conscience. Or rather, since he will do that anyway, listening to and recognising what the Spirit has to say on the subject.
The connection of that with being "born anew" is that recognition of sin has often been found to be a preliminary to turning back to God.
Those who refuse to come to the light won't see the need to be born anew and won't look for it.

P.S. Yes, "light" is such an important theme in John that I'm thinking of devoting a thread to it at some later stage.
Judas went out "into the night", of course.

Please, start a thread on THE LIGHT in John's gospel and
we can pick up on that theme & go from there....

You used the phrase: "staying away from the light"
(to mean: "attempting to evade the scrutiny of God's
critical eye").

Here are a few alternative ideas:

A) "to stray from the light" (to submit to false authority)

B) "to avoid or deny the inner light" (to seek validation from man
rather than stand on personal conviction from self-evident truth)

C) "to embrace the Light" (i.e., listening to and recognize what
the Spirit/Source has to say on the subject.)

My take on this (and many subjects) often follow the "A" tack.
I see "false authority" as the "darkness/evil" that invades our world.

You seem to follow the "C" line of thought. And from this view-point
you seem to be saying one who is "born anew" has reached a point where
they gain recognition of "sin" in their lives. Jesus called it "evil deeds"
and said it was FEAR those "evil deeds" might be exposed which keep
men (and women) living in darkness.

To step into the Light is then an act of courage, and with it
a paradigm shift follows, a turning away ("enduring repentance")
and "anew" found determination to change something, to move
forward in different way--with "anew" reality.

Again Jesus label that something: "evil deeds"
But I think it actually "shameful deeds" and not
neccessary evil, bad, wrong, or immoral.

To be "born anew" of Water and the Spirit means clean of shame.
Clean like a bath (or baptism)? Yes, but more. More than mere
ceremonial clean, this means a change of mind, outlook, purpose,
direction, etc. It is a point of departure from the secret live of shame.
As you said, "a preliminary (initial) to turning back to God."

"Those who refuse to come to the light won't see the need
to be born anew and won't look for it." Jesus said the know
there deed are evil (must remain hidden). But here is my
question: If my deeds are brought into the Light of Day,
could it also mean that by relinquishing the secret/hidden
that it can no longer be used against you. Meaning, not
every thing done in "darkness" (not every thing hidden)
is an "evil deed" to be repented of... some things that
people deem "sinful" simple need to be admitted and
then keep in the Light.

You said: The Light = scrutiny of God's critical eye
My fear: The Light = scrutiny of God's People and their critical eye

I guess all we can do is "walk in the Light" as best we can.
For me, this means being open with my live and being free
from any feelings of guilt and shame. By walking in the Light
I can experience the grace of God's love and acceptance.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: infolurker
Yes, I'm inclined to think that "prosperity gospel" is one of the things that happens when Christians begin reading the Old Testament "by the letter" instead of "by the Spirit". Because "God will make you prosper" is there in the OT texts.
This is a many-faceted problem.
Enthusiastic literalism is turning the modern church back towards legalism.

I always get a tear in my eye when reading your posts. They are uplifting to me.

When I was young and my parents took me to church (we actually went sporadically, that's why I remember the sermons so well), my pastor actually addressed the prosperity message and taught that being prosperous really meant having what you need when you need it. He included spiritual prosperity in that.

The prosperity Gospel really has made a lot of people think that God has to give them more than they even need. They use the verse "shaken down, running over" to justify that.

I read that God has chosen that man should earn his bread by the sweat of his brow, that life will be a constant struggle against nature that had once also been in perfection. I also read that God said "If you are faithful in a few things, I will make you ruler over many".

Some people want to skip the work, not be faithful and get the much. But how different is that than the Social Gospel?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The common factor ought to be a resulting sense of belonging to God, being a child of God, through the agency of Christ.
The initiative of God, the agency of Christ; those are the key points of what the New Testament says on the subject.

It seems like all of those can be summarized as surrender to God through Christ. E.g., being a child of God implies a complete dependency on the Divine; the same with belonging to God.

Also, the initiative of God is about God moving to the person and their surrender to His Grace, right?

It also seems like surrender is the basis for living the 2 great commandments - how else could one love so fully unless they were in such a relationship with God?

What do you or others think?

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The common factor ought to be a resulting sense of belonging to God, being a child of God, through the agency of Christ.
The initiative of God, the agency of Christ; those are the key points of what the New Testament says on the subject.

It seems like all of those can be summarized as surrender to God through Christ. E.g., being a child of God implies a complete dependency on the Divine; the same with belonging to God.

Also, the initiative of God is about God moving to the person and their surrender to His Grace, right?

It also seems like surrender is the basis for living the 2 great commandments - how else could one love so fully unless they were in such a relationship with God?

What do you or others think?

From my teaching in church, as children we can be incredibly rebellious, even as spiritual children. We cannot surrender unless the rebellious nature is either taken away or we learn to mature through it.

That is why the Holy Spirit is to indwell within us, removing the former nature and then maturing us.

The former nature of the man of sin is what must die. The new nature is to be born in us and that can only be done by the will of God.

The Prodigal could not surrender until he recognized the state he was in. Jonah could not surrender until he recognized his state as well. Surrender isn't something you just do, it is something that is done within you.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Surrender isn't something you just do, it is something that is done within you.

Well said. Yes, no amount of effort is going to result in surrender. It is when all our seeking to make our own agenda happen relaxes in the Spirit, that true surrender to the Spirit can occur. At least that is how it seems to me.

And yes, I agree that it takes a real recognition of our state to motivate us to turn to God - to finally give up the attempts to find happiness apart from God.

a reply to: bb23108


Jesus the Way to the Father (John 14)

5
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15“If you love me, keep my commands.
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25“All this I have spoken while still with you.
26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.
30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,
31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

originally posted by: bb23108
It seems like all of those can be summarized as surrender to God through Christ. E.g., being a child of God implies a complete dependency on the Divine; the same with belonging to God.

Agreed. I am always emphasising nowadays that the essence of faith is trust. Trust in the person, even more than "believing that something is true". I sometimes use the phrase "throwing yourself upon God in trust".

Also, the initiative of God is about God moving to the person and their surrender to His Grace, right?
It also seems like surrender is the basis for living the 2 great commandments - how else could one love so fully unless they were in such a relationship with God?

My thought moves on similar lines. I am developing the concept of "self-offering", which relates to faith as "trust" and also links up with what Jesus was doing himself.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
The prosperity Gospel really has made a lot of people think that God has to give them more than they even need. They use the verse "shaken down, running over" to justify that.

Indeed. One of the items on my "list of things to do" is examining how the New Testament transforms the concepts found in the Old Testament, and one of those is "blessing". Material benefits in the OT, spiritual benefits in the NT.

If you are gonna be aware/know the spirit (the light from above) in this life while living then I agree with DISRAELI, you will have to go thru the rebirth (anointment). But there are tourist (spirits who are here to get a feel of what it is to be temporary human) on earth that are righteous even if they will not go thru the anointment.

Every soul can access spirit energy and sometimes do it even when they are not aware of it. The anointment can be seen as the moment the soul thru the body can feel the energy drastically increase and stay at a higher level than before so that the body and mind become very aware of the energy flow and the body start to feel the bliss.

There is a reason people who go thru the change write songs like below.

originally posted by: wasaka
Please, start a thread on THE LIGHT in John's gospel and
we can pick up on that theme & go from there....

It is certainly on my agenda.
The only problem is that I limit the number of threads I put forward, because I don't want to be accused of spamming, and many other ideas are jostling for a place in the publication queue.

C) "to embrace the Light" (i.e., listening to and recognize what
the Spirit/Source has to say on the subject.)...

You seem to follow the "C" line of thought.

I am obliged to go with that line of thought, because the central theme of the Bible is our relationship with the Creator God. That is the whole point.
Any solution which leaves God out of the equation will not be the Biblical solution.

But here is my question: If my deeds are brought into the Light of Day,
could it also mean that by relinquishing the secret/hidden
that it can no longer be used against you...

I guess all we can do is "walk in the Light" as best we can.
For me, this means being open with my live and being free
from any feelings of guilt and shame. By walking in the Light
I can experience the grace of God's love and acceptance.

Someone whose life was ideal would have no need to fear the scrutiny of others either.
But that would be secondary to the scrutiny of God.
The question goes back to Adam and Eve "hiding" among the trees in Genesis.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
If you are gonna be aware/know the spirit (the light from above) in this life while living then I agree with DISRAELI, you will have to go thru the rebirth (anointment). But there are tourist (spirits who are here to get a feel of what it is to be temporary human) on earth that are righteous even if they will not go thru the anointment.

The statement made by Jesus in this passage is that a man cannot enter the kingdom of God (= "be righteous") unless he is born anew.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
If you are gonna be aware/know the spirit (the light from above) in this life while living then I agree with DISRAELI, you will have to go thru the rebirth (anointment). But there are tourist (spirits who are here to get a feel of what it is to be temporary human) on earth that are righteous even if they will not go thru the anointment.

The statement made by Jesus in this passage is that a man cannot enter the kingdom of God (= "be righteous") unless he is born anew.

A soul can follow gods commands and be be righteous (since righteousness can be written in the unconscious) without knowing in the conscious mind what righteousness is and logically be able to calculate every behavior. There are souls that are scheduled for anointment at a later date but that is between those souls and the spirit.

A soul who is both "on this side of the veil" and "the other side of the veil" at the same time will understand with the conscious mind and know righteousness to a higher degree.

Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water.

Can be same behavior before and after anointment. The difference is the understanding after the anointment.

a reply to: LittleByLittle
Now you're bringing in the teachings of non-Biblical religions.
This being an exercise in studying the meaning of one portion of the Bible, I'm only interested in Biblical theology.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: LittleByLittle
Now you're bringing int the teachings of non-Biblical religions.
This being an exercise in studying the meaning of one portion of the Bible, I'm only interested in Biblical theology.

That is your choice if you do not want to see beyond the faith/religion to the spiritual hiding behind the words. My interest is in how Yeshua's teaching can be used to find the spiritual source that Yeshua's told us to seek.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: LittleByLittle
Now you're bringing int the teachings of non-Biblical religions.
This being an exercise in studying the meaning of one portion of the Bible, I'm only interested in Biblical theology.

That is your choice if you do not want to see beyond the faith/religion to the spiritual hiding behind the words. My interest is in how Yeshua's teaching can be used to find the spiritual source that Yeshua's told us to seek.

The spiritual source that Jesus taught...was Himself.

That is why Jesus said "Abide in me and I shall abide in you". This is beyond mere allegorical, metaphorical or gnostic, as Jesus was alive when He said it.

As the Holy Spirit is defined as a personality, then it cannot be gnostic, you don't get an allegorical "light from above" from a personality, incorporeal, existing, spiritual entity that can speak, move, manifest and live.

That may be the confusion, as the Bible is clear on the definition of the Holy Spirit, you have taken it to mean an allegorical light. Jesus was Jewish and practiced the teaching that God was imminent in nature, spirit and in man, real, incorporeal, moving, speaking, living, expressive, had a mind, and involved in the affairs of men.

Jesus said "I am the life and the resurrection" while He was alive. Jesus said "No man comes to the Father (see above description) but by me, while He was alive.

It cannot be allegorical or metaphorical when the whole religion was based on the imminent experience of God. That is what the early Christians also believed. Therefore, the Gnostic ideas could only come later and inserted back into the text, it would have been Greeks who did that, who were formerly worshipers of every god in Greece, Rome, Egypt and Turkey.

Accts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

Epicureanism

Epicureanism is an ancient Greek philosophical system taught by Epicurus. It emphasized the goal of a happy and content life in the here and now, rejecting both superstitous fear of the gods and notions of an afterlife. Though the modern use of the term "Epicurean" is associated with the saying, "Eat, drink and be merry," Epicureanism did not advocate simple pursuit of bodily pleasure and differed significantly from hedonism.

If you seek to insert any gnostic interpretation into the text, that would be from the Greeks, not the Jews. The Greeks thought it strange enough to comment that Paul was teaching about new gods, and not a gnostic idea.

Therefore, gnositicsm cannot be reconciled in the Bible nor in the imminency of God or Jesus.

Definition of imminent

adjective 1. likely to occur at any moment; impending. 2. projecting or leaning forward; overhanging.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is imminent (at hand). The Bible says that God overshadowed (was imminent) Mary.

Therefore, God is projecting Himself into Creation, leans forward into the hearts of men and overshadows us. That is why the Psalmist said

Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Jesus said the kingdom of God is imminent (at hand).

The kingdom of God is in the immediacy. God is right here and right now - ever presently as presence.
Nothing can appear outside presence - the appearance is presence.

The idea that there is other than presence appears in presence as presence.
All ideas are made of presence even though they seem to be speaking of other.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Jesus said the kingdom of God is imminent (at hand).

The kingdom of God is in the immediacy. God is right here and right now - ever presently as presence.
Nothing can appear outside presence - the appearance is presence.

The idea that there is other than presence appears in presence as presence.
All ideas are made of presence even though they seem to be speaking of other.

A presence means that something is present. An idea may be something, but it is only present in the mind of the individual. As God is imminent in nature and in man, inside and outside of the spiritual realm, the presence of God is presently present, as in His presence is present because He IS.

Only God's idea was manifest through His spoken word "let there be light...let the earth bring forth...". An idea is nothing if it is not manifest, and it was manifest imminently because He spoke.

An idea doesn't speak nor is it manifest by and in itself. And God said...thus saith the Lord.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
The spiritual source that Jesus taught...was Himself.

That is why Jesus said "Abide in me and I shall abide in you". This is beyond mere allegorical, metaphorical or gnostic, as Jesus was alive when He said it.

Right, the very person of Jesus, who was also saying that he is one with the Father.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
As the Holy Spirit is defined as a personality, then it cannot be gnostic, you don't get an allegorical "light from above" from a personality, incorporeal, existing, spiritual entity that can speak, move, manifest and live.

The Light above is not merely allegorical - Jesus spoke of the utter necessity for being reborn from above while still living on earth - to be the very Light of the world.

The Light of the Father is not merely to be waited for or found elsewhere - this was the secret Jesus spoke of when he said:

Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
That may be the confusion, as the Bible is clear on the definition of the Holy Spirit, you have taken it to mean an allegorical light. Jesus was Jewish and practiced the teaching that God was imminent in nature, spirit and in man, real, incorporeal, moving, speaking, living, expressive, had a mind, and involved in the affairs of men.

Thank you for this clarification that the Divine is Life or Living, not just the Source of Life.

Jesus was the Agent of the Father even while on Earth - to show us how to live in God's Light even while alive, and the Holy Spirit is his means for continuing this very intimate and personal relationship. When someone is in spiritual communion with the Divine, it is VERY personal.

It is always refreshing and inspiring when someone brings this aspect of their relationship into the conversation. So thank you for that.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Jesus said "I am the life and the resurrection" while He was alive. Jesus said "No man comes to the Father (see above description) but by me, while He was alive.

Yes. And even while he lived, his disciples surrendered to him as the very personal Light of God - and this transformed their lives here on Earth.

John 8:12
"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

originally posted by: infolurker6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

A beautiful in-life invitation made by Jesus directly to his disciples telling them the secret that being in relationship to him was the whole way, the actual revelation, and one's only real existence. Their means of being the Light of God in this life was the actual living person of their Master and the Holy Spirit.

His two great commandments were about expressing their profound spiritual intimacy with the whole heart, body-mind, and spirit - and with others as oneself. When in communion with the Divine, his guidance in their lives would no doubt be obvious.