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Truly, truly; You must be born anew

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posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:45 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
Agreed. I am always emphasising nowadays that the essence of faith is trust. Trust in the person, even more than "believing that something is true". I sometimes use the phrase "throwing yourself upon God in trust".

My thought moves on similar lines. I am developing the concept of "self-offering", which relates to faith as "trust" and also links up with what Jesus was doing himself.

Yes, such offering of one's very self requires great trust - and faith. Fortunately, the heart inherently knows what is true - though it is often tested by the world and even our own lack of whole bodily disciplines relative to the wandering of attention, rightful living, etc.

Jesus' two great commandments certainly say that to truly be altogether with God, one must completely offer up the self in deepest love and gratitude. The heart-felt practice of this is what he offered in life to his followers.

His physical form would undoubtedly draw them to him through the sheer attraction of his being - love and light - which inherently moves one's heart to real devotional communion.

Then one can feel the commandments can actually be done because they are on this selfless foundation of love-communion with God already being the case. Plus the wisdom of abiding by the commandments supports the body-mind that much more in this devotional relationship.

Jesus' commandments are brilliant.

edit on 5/2/2015 by bb23108 because:




posted on May, 3 2015 @ 04:31 AM
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"And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

When a child is born it does not have any idea (concept) that it is a self. There is just what is happening - as it grows and enters the adult world it starts to think that life is happening to it. The assumption is that there is a world and there is a me who has to protect itself from the world. The one has become two - the child is no longer in paradise (heaven) - it cannot afford to be carefree, it now longs for that wholeness - it seeks to end the feeling of separation.

To be 'born anew' would be to become like little children again.

The reality is that there is still just what is happening.
But the awareness which can do nothing (as it is just a witness) is being aware of words and stories of times and places that do not exist - it seems to be experiencing a 'person who lives in time' but look right now, can you see a person who lives in time? Can you see or hear time?

Words and stories cannot speak of this that is happening so words speak of other and create the illusion that there is a separate you. In that dream of separation absolutely anything can happen and it can be exciting and it can be terrifying.
Let go of the idea of time and all stories and realize that what there is, is just this. And in this, as this all stories appear to happen.

edit on 3-5-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
Agreed. I am always emphasising nowadays that the essence of faith is trust. Trust in the person, even more than "believing that something is true". I sometimes use the phrase "throwing yourself upon God in trust".

My thought moves on similar lines. I am developing the concept of "self-offering", which relates to faith as "trust" and also links up with what Jesus was doing himself.

So do you think that being born anew would invariably give that person a more intimate personal relationship with Jesus as a person?

If so, would you care to elaborate? E.g., loving the Lord "with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"'. What does that mean to you in relation to the person of Jesus?


edit on 5/4/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 01:57 AM
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a reply to: bb23108
This comes back to what I said before, that it's not possible to generalise, because different people would experience it in different ways.
For some, there may be the more direct emotions which you've seen described, as you've already mentioned.
For others, it might be more a sense of commitment, a sense of belonging, a sense of trust.
The observation of Jesus that "you can't see the wind, you can only see its effects" has a bearing here. The Spirit doesn't always work in exactly the same way.
I've been focussing on the sense of trust and what follows from that; the confidence, the absence of anxiety.
You've already mentioned seeing other people describe their own experience. You can listen to that testimony as well, along with the testimony of anyone else who chooses to contribute here.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:53 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
This comes back to what I said before, that it's not possible to generalise, because different people would experience it in different ways.


Yes, I understand that "one shoe does not fit all", but even so, my question is if people gain a greater intimacy with Jesus as a person - or let's say, as a personality, like warminindy was describing on the prior page. She even spoke in terms of the Holy Spirit being a personality, so I am also asking her these questions.


originally posted by: WarminIndy
The spiritual source that Jesus taught...was Himself.

That is why Jesus said "Abide in me and I shall abide in you". This is beyond mere allegorical, metaphorical or gnostic, as Jesus was alive when He said it.

As the Holy Spirit is defined as a personality, then it cannot be gnostic, you don't get an allegorical "light from above" from a personality, incorporeal, existing, spiritual entity that can speak, move, manifest and live.


This seems like a very important aspect to what being born again means and implies, and I was hoping for further discussion.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
Sure, but what do you want me to do?
If you want a discussion in terms of personal experience, I can't describe a personal experience I haven't got.
I've already described my own version of the experience.
If Warminindy has a more direct and conscious sense of relationship with the person of Jesus, then that makes her in some respects more fortunate than me.
In any case, her experience answers your question. Evidently people do (frequently, but not automatically) gain a greater intimacy with Jesus as a person.




edit on 5-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: bb23108
Sure, but what do you want me to do?
If you want a discussion in terms of personal experience, I can't describe a personal experience I haven't got.
I've already described my own version of the experience.


Oh, my apologies. I assumed from your prior posts that you spoke with (perhaps even many) other Christians and therfore might have some understanding you might wish to share of what others have gone through in this regard.

Given being born anew is most central to Jesus' teaching, it would be worth considering fully, in my opinion. And you obviously must think so, given you started this thread.

Are there many passages that indicate one would have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus the person when born again - beyond the passages that you already mentioned relative to the agency of Christ, etc.


edit on 5/5/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 04:45 PM
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originally posted by: bb23108
Given being born anew is most central to Jesus' teaching, it would be worth considering fully, in my opinion. And you obviously must think so, given you started this thread.

Now you are being disingenuous again, which I am learning to recognise as one of your character traits.
At no point have I refused to discuss being born anew, as you well know.
You said that you wanted to discuss it in terms of personal experience, and I did so as far as it lay within my power.
You asked a question about what was possible in personal experience, and I pointed out that Warminindy had, in principle, answered the question already.


Are there many passages that indicate one would have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus the person when born again

One way of answering that is to go to what Paul says about his own experience.
He describes it as "God was pleased to reveal his Son to me" (Galatians ch1 v15). The Greek actually says "in me".
And he says later "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".
The alternative way of describing that is to say that the Holy Spirit lives in us and guides us, because the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ, and represents him.
That is why Jesus says in this passage that we need to be born "of the Spirit".
Similarly, Paul says "You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you..." (Romans ch8 vv9-10).

What this tells us is an intimate personal relationship with Jesus necessarily exists.
What is variable is the exact way that this personal relationship is felt and experienced.




posted on May, 5 2015 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
Now you are being disingenuous again, which I am learning to recognise as one of your character traits.

I am unsure what you find insincere or even dishonest about my posts. But if that is how you feel, I will move on. Thanks for your other answers though.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 05:28 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
"Disingenuous" is the opposite of "ingenuous".
"Ingenuous" means "innocent".
Therefore "disingenuous" means "not innocent".
When you ask questions or make comments which are not as innocent as they are pretending to be, that is when they are disingenuous.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

When you ask questions or make comments which are not as innocent as they are pretending to be, that is when they are disingenuous.


I don't have an agenda here other than helping to further the discussion about a thread you and I talked about a month or so ago and to discover how people relate to Jesus in this process of rebirth.

You say I am "pretending" and that sounds like "dishonest" or at least "insincere" to me. If you want to elaborate specifically what you mean, with an example or two, that might help me understand you, and to change my act.

Otherwise I must take your statement at face value.





edit on 5/5/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 6 2015 @ 01:30 AM
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a reply to: bb23108
I've made that observation now on two different occasions.

In a previous thread, you asked me twice "Where did I go off topic?" I answered you the first time, so the second time was a case of asking a question where you knew the answer already, as I pointed out.

The second occasion was this comment;

Given being born anew is most central to Jesus' teaching, it would be worth considering fully, in my opinion. And you obviously must think so, given you started this thread.

That carried the insinuation that I was trying to evade discussing being born anew, and you knew that the insinuation was untrue.

But again, that's exactly what I told you a couple of posts back, so that's another case of asking a question where you knew the answer already.
See what I mean?




edit on 6-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2015 @ 06:38 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: bb23108
The second occasion was this comment;

Given being born anew is most central to Jesus' teaching, it would be worth considering fully, in my opinion. And you obviously must think so, given you started this thread.

That carried the insinuation that I was trying to evade discussing being born anew, and you knew that the insinuation was untrue.

But again, that's exactly what I told you a couple of posts back, so that's another case of asking a question where you knew the answer already.
See what I mean?

I now understand why you are assuming this - because you took that one paragraph out of context relative to what immediately followed it. Read both paragraphs together (posted below) and you will perhaps understand that I did not mean you were evading the discussion, but that there may be a different way to approach it. Therefore, I asked what is contained in the next paragraph, which you did respond to.


originally posted by: bb23108
Given being born anew is most central to Jesus' teaching, it would be worth considering fully, in my opinion. And you obviously must think so, given you started this thread.

Are there many passages that indicate one would have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus the person when born again - beyond the passages that you already mentioned relative to the agency of Christ, etc.

I will try to be even more careful with how I word things going forward, but also ask that you consider the meaning and intention of my whole post, not just a selective paragraph or sentence. I do appreciate your explanation though so that I can understand your point-of-view, and adjust my writing accordingly.

In the meantime, since my participation here has apparently stopped this discussion, I will bow out from asking you any further questions, etc.

Hopefully others will continue with this worthwhile thread.


edit on 5/6/2015 by bb23108 because:



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