You can never explain the physical world

a reply to: BlueMule

Explanations and rigid definitions are impossible when it comes to anything, Clark.

That sounds pretty rigid to me, Tabarin. Loosen it up a bit.

But you do. That's part of the reason you traveled so extensively. You looked for God in the streets, under trees, on mountains, in ritual. Now, frustrated, you travel the net looking. If you just admit it to yourself and open up, it will go much easier for you.

If only this was the case, you might have something other than your imagination to work with. But of course you put the content of your imagination before anyone else. Don't worry; this is typical.

They have a life-cycle, just like cultures, scientific theories, people. When a mystical narrative is outgrown by its culture, it is no longer transparent to the transcendent. It becomes opaque. It dies and is reborn in terms more applicable to the new milieu. Again and again and again.

Stories do not change. Homer only wrote the Iliad once. Shakespeare only wrote Romeo & Juliet once. How much one wants to adapt and exaggerate them is up to those who would promote mediocrity.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

What is it that is 'aware' that the eyesight diminishes?

The eyesight.

Are you 'aware' that the body is changing and moving?

My body is fully aware that it moves and changes.

The surroundings change but that which is aware of the changes does not.

It does. How else would you be able to go to sleep?

Speak to an old person and they will say that it is not fair, they still feel 18 but the body is falling apart around them.

No one feels 18 when their body is aged and falling apart.

a reply to: bb23108

Itisnowagain said it well. There is no doubt that one's body-mind ages and eventually dies. But everything we actually experience occurs in awareness, whether that be recognition of the failing body-mind, or the beauty of the female form, or *substitute what you consider beautiful.*

How else could I even be self-aware as awareness itself, if awareness is the result of biology? This is self-evidently the case.

itsnowagain said it falsly.

You're begging the question, bb. You are not self-aware as awareness itself. If I drop your fallacy and construct a more valid question—"how could I be self-aware if awareness is the result of biology?"—it answers itself. So no, it is not self-evidently the case, or it would be self-evident.

When you fall out of your separative illusion of an apparent knower knowing separate objects via pov, and just be who you are, you will see that your are awareness itself, prior to but not separate from anything.

I'm sorry but this makes little sense to me. If awareness is prior to, say, your body, you would be self-aware before you were born. I do not think you are being who you are. It seems like you are trying to be something else.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: bb23108
Do you think you have any control of the movie which appears to be playing? Or are you just witnessing what is happening in the apparent movie? I ask again because I want to clarify where you think you are in all this?

Ultimately there is only Consciousness, no apparent separate anyone doing any controlling or witnessing. But that is a great and very rare realization.

Ultimately, It only appears that we can control because of awareness' association and identification with body-minds.

These apparently controlling body-minds are quite capable of creating huge messes, as we can notice on the news everyday.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
No one feels 18 when their body is aged and falling apart.

Where they are seeing from does.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Where they are seeing from does.

Tell them they feel 18, and then tell them they are seeing from something other than their eyes. I promise they will think you've gone off the deep end.

originally posted by: bb23108


Ultimately, It only appears that we can control because of awareness' association and identification with body-minds.

These apparently controlling body-minds are quite capable of creating huge messes, as we can notice on the news everyday.

In another post you stated that 'we made the mess'. But are you doing anything within the movie? Do you even appear in the movie? Is there not just a seeing of what is appearing to happen?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I'm sorry but this makes little sense to me. If awareness is prior to, say, your body, you would be self-aware before you were born. I do not think you are being who you are. It seems like you are trying to be something else.

We are self-aware before we are "born" (the word born used here to mean that awareness becomes associated with a physical body-mind through the mechanism of attention) - but most of us do not remember this now, or at best may have glimpses of this being the case.

But keeping to this life... You go to sleep every night, and even in deep sleep you could still be aware - but only if you, as awareness, are released of your identification with the body-mind's states. This is then self-evident to you that you are indeed awareness.

Awareness is the only unchanging (persistent) "experience" that we have, whether awake, or dreaming, or sleeping. All else changes.

Let me ask you this, LesMis. Do you believe that awareness is actually physical? If so, what is it made up of?

It is the one "thing" that never changes, never ages, so how could it be physical?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Tell them they feel 18, and then tell them they are seeing from something other than their eyes. I promise they will think you've gone off the deep end.

No - you go out and research it. Go to an old peoples home and ask them. I have spoken to enough people and know from my own experience that it is true.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
In another post you stated that 'we made the mess'. But are you doing anything within the movie? Do you even appear in the movie? Is there not just a seeing of what is appearing to happen?

Of course, as the body-mind, we are apparently doing all kinds of things that as body-minds we must be responsible for. But that does not mean one has to presume that we are ultimately just the body-mind and when we die we are dead. We, as our true nature (awareness), can immediately and self-evidently recognize "something" greater than these body-minds.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Stories do not change. Homer only wrote the Iliad once. Shakespeare only wrote Romeo & Juliet once. How much one wants to adapt and exaggerate them is up to those who would promote mediocrity.

Stories are more than the words on a page. They are what people take from them. What we take from any particular story changes from person to person, culture to culture, age to age.

Have you ever penetrated the surface of a story, reached into the subtext, and extracted a truth that resonates with you?

👣

a reply to: bb23108

We are self-aware before we are born - most of us do not remember this or at best may have glimpses of this being the case.

What, if anything, shows you this to be the case?

Awareness is the only unchanging (persistent) "experience" that we have, whether awake, or dreaming, or sleeping. All else changes.

That is untrue.

Let me ask you this, LesMis. Do you believe that awareness is actually physical? If so, what is it made up of?

Awareness isn't an ontological entity. It is an explanatory fiction made of words and wordplay.

It is the one "thing" that never changes, never ages, so how could it be physical?

It isn't the one thing that never changes nor never ages.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

No - you go out and research it. Go to an old peoples home and ask them. I have spoken to enough people and know from my own experience that it is true.

Do you feel 3 years old?

a reply to: BlueMule

Stories are more than the words on a page. They are what people take from them. What we take from any particular story changes from person to person, culture to culture, age to age.

Have you ever penetrated the surface of a story, reached into the subtext, and extracted a truth that resonates with you?

One second we're talking about stories, the next we're speaking about the people who read them. It's confusing.

originally posted by: ParanormalGuy
You can never explain the physical world, it's like explaining a magnet. You can explain what it does, but no scientist on Earth will ever be able to explain how it attracts other magnetic matter. But you can probably come to a point where every physical behavior is written down. Still the big question will be unanswered, the question of why it all exists? Only when the non-physical world is acknowledged we can begin to answer those questions.

Thoughts?

Yes, you can, since it is all around you, hiding nothing. It is honest and revealing as can be.


DO.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
In another post you stated that 'we made the mess'. But are you doing anything within the movie? Do you even appear in the movie? Is there not just a seeing of what is appearing to happen?

Of course, as the body-mind, we are apparently doing all kinds of things that as body-minds we must be responsible for. But that does not mean one has to presume that we are ultimately just the body-mind and when we die we are dead. We, as our true nature (awareness), can immediately and self-evidently recognize "something" greater than these body-minds.

So you may well be filled with thoughts of 'I should have done it differently' and 'he or she should have done it differently' because there is an idea that it could be different.
What is arising is just arising and appears to be seen. There is no one who can do anything different - all is changing but no one is doing this.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: BlueMule

Stories are more than the words on a page. They are what people take from them. What we take from any particular story changes from person to person, culture to culture, age to age.

Have you ever penetrated the surface of a story, reached into the subtext, and extracted a truth that resonates with you?

One second we're talking about stories, the next we're speaking about the people who read them. It's confusing.

Oh come now Clark. You aren't confused. You're evasive. After all, you had this to say earlier. "I think you should take whatever you can from such a maxim. The good thing about such succinct epigrams, is that they generate ideas in the one reading them." Surely you know that extends to stories.

👣

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Yes, we have had this conversation before and was why I one time thought of doing a thread about what awareness is - process or being or ?

Anyway, I am not going to do such a thread now as it takes so much time, especially if people actually respond!


It is self-evident to me, LesMis. That's the core of it. But it has also been shown by various visions of prior lives, etc., but no experiences really make the difference. The self-evident truth of being awareness is what really matters because it is constant, not relying on some past experience, etc.

But one has to release the constant point-of-view-making identification with attention to understand this for oneself. Even a momentary release of this mechanism to always be the "knower", can allow the obviousness of this self-evidence, in that moment at least.

Again, we have reached this impasse, but always interesting, LesMis.

By the way, I sent you a u2u yesterday, in case you hadn't seen it yet.

a reply to: BlueMule

Oh come now Clark. You aren't confused. You're evasive. After all, you had this to say earlier. "I think you should take whatever you can from such a maxim. The good thing about such succinct epigrams, is that they generate ideas in the one reading them." Surely you know that extends to stories.

Sure. Why would I say otherwise, Tabarin?

So you will admit it is the people and not the stories that change?

a reply to: bb23108

Again, we have reached this impasse, but always interesting, LesMis.

You have reached this impasse, my friend. Anytime you wish to continue further I will be here.