Pagans , Wiccans and Druids Tell Us What You Believe About Creation ?

So in another thread I said I would be making this thread, because I know pagans and the like, that are not apart of the three Abrahamic religions believed in some form of creation in the past, but is that still true ?
Since this is YOUR personal belief there is no wrong answer.

Personal disclosure: I believe in old earth/universe creation, and that cosmology, abiogenesis and evolution can be broken into different categories scientifically, but conceptually to belief and faith they are all one in the same. Although some would have you believe they must be kept separate, reality is not subjugated to scientific categories that are theories and hypothesis.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I personally believe that there could be a creator, or that there could not be a creator. I follow a simple logic that all beliefs (beliefs, not facts) rely on weights and averages to be formulated and that we do everyone a disservice, by treating such suppositions as fact. We, as a society, are still children... in that we always have to have a yes or no, black or white solution to everything, when in fact, we should be adult enough to leave some questions open ended until the correct information is found. Rather than accept that we do not know something, and let that drive us to it's solution, we accept instead, half provable theories and disassociate ourselves from it.

We are forced to compromise in the face of ignorance.

It is not an easy position, to be the one pointing out that no one has it right yet, but it is the responsible one. If I perish and there is an afterlife, or if there is nothing, at least I will arrive with an open mind, ready and waiting for what is before me. I couldn't imagine how angry or upset I would be, if I had preconceived notions of what to expect, to have them later turn out to be false. That is the ultimate cost of prescribing to anything unprovable, and I don't like to gamble with such things.

In terms of creation, I think the point is fairly moot. If you believe something has to be created, than the creator must have had to come from somewhere. Would he not be in his own little bubble of existence contemplating much the same thing?

I like to think of creation as a law of numbers... We are here. That much is certain. We know then, that some chemical combinations, can give rise to molecules that replicate infinitely (ie, humans). We also know, that chemically, all things can be created under the right circumstances. Even the creationists must agree, or their creator could not have "created" them. All across the cosmos, natural processes churn out every combination of compound imaginable. Every combination. It seems silly to me to see evidence of this, everywhere you look, but then decide, one of them came about via supernatural means, simply because you don't understand the mechanism.

It is interesting, that yes, some entity may exist outside of the system we call our universe, and may have had a part in shaping it... but, regardless of size, our universe is still a system. It would still be a part of something, which would still have it's own set of puzzles to conquer.

I have strong opinions yes, but it may surprise most to know that I even want religious folks to succeed. I would really enjoy a world where folks attacked the puzzles they had in front of them, rather than arguing whether their guess, happens to be better than someone elses.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

As I don't see the universe or my spiritual side as coming from one single creator organ grinder in the first place due to the length of time involved and the age this being would have to be, the popular creation myths don't,even though ones as written of by e.g. Tolkein are quite beautiful don't fly for me. I think life is a fundamental fact produced by energy within space which through chemical interaction by the sacred elements, has over a long period of time created life.

Perhaps many people don't want to face the uncomfortable question that we know of nothing that is in continual existence in order to make a claim on eternity. Everything arises, lives and decays there is nothing I have ever heard of that continually exists. We know that eventually our galaxy will collide with andromeda so we will be poofed out of existence I don't believe in 'an organ grinder' who can claim to have created so many universes in the first place. I think its desperate people manipulated by power megalomaniacs whom saw a way to get people to follow them.

I do see a balanced intelligence which I feel we all contribute towards as a collective morphic field. The design on our planet of a balanced male and female operation I feel permeates creativity through our planet. We are so delicately balanced within our solar system I don't fundamentally believe an identical life form is possible elsewhere unless its a mirror image of earth. So again an organ grinder like ourselves who created us and hopped it is beyond my pagan mind questioning where did he/it go?

I do believe in science working and gaining success by a long existence which has grown due to what has survived and what hasn't in a trial and error manner. I also know through personal experience through my work that people live more than one life so I believe in reincarnation, but how and what I choose to think as sacred are those things that I see as balanced, for me the Gods represent different human characterises which we appeal to in order to absorb mentally when we need those characterises in our lives.

If thou worry about offending some signatory even by your thoughts before you can process them yourself - which the catholic education tried to impress on my disbelieving mind you are geared to a life of guilt and fear. I don't buy that and the celebrations and love of their power to create is something I associate mentally with more than the doom and gloom religion has tried to thrust at me. I also liked the fairness of things like the distribution of land the Druids were about as well as education, which the churches stopped as soon as they gained a foothold in Britain. Keep them ignorant is simply beastly IMHO. Don't know if my view helps or hinders but that's how my paganism as well as an interest in esoteric subjects such as astrology has panned out. Its only 20 odd years ago that the local vicar was shutting our people who did yoga, had aromatherapy etc so we are moving forward by Oh the hand wringing.

I heard a gentleman on The Higherside Chats say this the other day, and it sounded good to be. Forgive me if it's not verbatim, but the idea is the same.

"We are subjective packets of consciousness residing within the objective consciousness of the 'creator.'"

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

The oldest creation story I know of (pre Christian) is of the Cailleach /the Carlin:

The Cailleach is the genius of winter and the enemy of growth. Her chief seat is Ben Nevis. She ushers in winter by washing her great plaid in the whirlpool of Corryvreckan [Coire Bhreacain = the Cauldron of the Plaid]. Before the washing, it is said, the roar of a coming tempest is heard by people on the coast for a distance of twenty miles, for a period of three days until the cauldron boils. When the washing is over, the plaid of old Scotland is virgin white.' [2 p.20]

She is said to have created Scotland by dropping boulders to make mountains, and peat to make hills. Her rival was Bride, the beautiful summer queen (St Brigid), who ruled the land whilst the Cailleach was turned to stone, only to come back to life when the season turned again.



An interesting aside:

Here the Cailleach's cauldron is the whirlpool of the Corryvreckan. The cauldron is associated with other Nine Maidens groups in other areas. Surviving folklore also refers to this whirlpool as being the breath of the Goddess beneath the waves. Only since humans have achieved space flight has it become known that the oceans contain eddies, up to 20 kilometres across, which circulate warm surface water into the depths thus releasing life-sustaining nutrients. This gives the motif of the whirlpool as the cauldron of the Mother Goddess a whole new level of meaning. Mythology explains the physical universe and its attributes in human terms.

There are loads of great stories about her, all explaining either the turning of the seasons or the formation of landscape.

Whirlpool Scotland

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Oh Gods, you are really going to go this path? Ok then, to avoid thread drift, I will play along. However its rather transparent why you are doing this. Are you going to start a thread for the Jewish poster who is also on my side of the debate in the other threads? Just curious. The Hindu person? I mean all this over a group of threads on abiogenesis and evolution? Sigh

Any how.

“Druid” Creation myths. One assumes you mean “Celtic” though more specific than that is needed. Cymric (Welsh) Celtic? Gaelic Celtic? Gaulish celtic? It is kin of important. Similarly “Druid” in the modern context means “Celtic (usually specified to the above levels) preChristian Spirituality. Similarly Wiccan? You will get a dozen or more “creation myths” for them, because they tend to be eclectic in the cultures they cherry pick form.

There are a number of Indo-European creation myths which have survived, they can all generally be traced back to a reconstructed Proto Indo European myth or myths. I am going to rely one of my favourites. It’s a myth reconstructed by one of the leading researchers into Proto Indo-European (PIE) religion, Ceisiwr Serith. It comes from his book Deep Ancestors: Practicing the Religion of the Proto Indo-Europeans. Any one vaguely interested should grab a look at it .

Everything was water.
Everything was Chaos.
From this Chaos arose land.
As the Land expanded the great serpent of the deep awoke.
The serpent encircled the new formed land and kept it for its self.
From the endless sky the Thunderer came, with his spear of lighting and his flaming wagros (club)
He struck the serpent three times (once for each of its heads)
With the first strike he released the cows onto the land
With the second strike he released the maidens
With his last strike he released the waters that the serpent had trapped in the land.

These waters poured forth and made the land fertile. Yet there was still Chaos.

At this time the divine twins Yemmos and Mannus came to the land.
Yemmos claimed kingship over it, and sort council from his brother.
In time they fought, and Mannus killed Yemmos.
From his brothers skull he made the sky and his brains the clouds
From his eyes the stars, the planets, and the moon
From his hair the plants and his flesh the soil.
From his bones the rocks and the mountains
From his bloods flowed the rivers and streams

The cosmos was ordered, and the order was known as Xartus.

Thus this is a prototypical version of the creation myth many find in the Indo-European cultures we study. This is very similar to the Scandinavian creation myth for example

But back to the Celts. We don’t have a surviving myth of the creation of the universe, of life.
There quite possibly was one, but notice I use the term “surviving”. There are myths for the creation of nations however Google them

These myths are meant to be seen as allegories, ways to explain mystical things. As a Neopagan Druid and a Celtic Reconstructionist (google is your friend), I seek to gain inspiration, be that through divine Imbas, or mundane knowledge, I still seek to understand the universe batter. Science is one of these tools. Gnosis is another. The problem with gnosis is that it is (by its very nature) unverifiable, as it comes from a Divine source (viz Imbas, also google will help). One should never try to apply science to solve gnosis, or gnosis to solve science.

Back before I became an atheist, I believed heavily in reincarnation that was mostly based on Michael Newton's Lives Between Lives.
From that, I took an understanding that we, as higher selves, would eventually specialize in aspects of creation. Eventually and after many lives, our learning would pinnacle into a sort of conjoining with other spirits to create new worlds. So, in effect, our ultimate destination is to be creators/gods ourselves, with Earth being created by spirit energies that had already become that.

Of course, I reject that all now as any other need for self-importance driven towards everlasting existence that can be seen in Afterlife scenarios, but it's really quite a nice system if you think about it, so I thought I'd post it here.

Wind fired water dirt, Freaking magnets. How do they work?