Mental illness - just have a think for a second before you open your mouth.

a reply to: and14263

The problem is you're debating mental health issues which on a whole I agree with you but I will never agree that this Pilots actions were excused by any potential mental illness he may or may not have had!

What Mental illness makes a person want to not only end his own life but those of other people?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I would, going by first hand experience of suicidal thoughts, knowing many others who have attempted, and some sadly, succeeding in taking their own life.

Huge difference between one wanting to take their own life and than someone willing to take everyone else with them. Out of interest, there are several folk on this thread who at some point have suffered debilitating depression and wanting to take their own life's, at any time did anyone feeling this depressed want to take others life's as well as their own!

a reply to: flammadraco

You want a list or just the top three?

a reply to: and14263

Anything would be good! I would be interested to know what label we are giving to those who want to commit suicide and to take others with them!

Ive a few labels but not for use on ATS!

a reply to: and14263

My little brother was shot 5 times in his face and thrown in the swamp by one of the people you're sympothizing with here. Deal with something like that, then get back to me with your rationality.

a reply to: Bone75

I won't bear my private life on here but I can tell you I know some of what you experience. It's hard to be rational when you're on the receiving end of injustice.

I sympathise with your position but our views here are polar opposites.

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

The pilot KILLED 150 people. Tell me how he is any different from an ISIS suicide Bomber or the Hijackers that flew into the World Trade Centre. When does being a lunatic wanting to kill another human cross the line to "Mental Illness".

All I see on this thread is folk trying to excuse the fact that the Pilot was ill. With that train of thought you would also be excusing ISIS suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers. Did these people have mental illnesses as well, were their actions justified due to their illnesses?

again no one is EXCUSING anything. no one is saying these people should have their slates whipped clean, that they did nothing wrong or deserve no consequences for their actions. jesus, i've never seen such an army of strawmen in my life.

and did you really just try and equate someone with a possible mental illness that could potentially experience AN episode of psychosis with 9/11 & ISIS terrorists?

sweet fancy moses man, you're too far gone. not even gonna bother. good luck and, lol

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

I used the "9/11" terrorist as an example and I'm sure you're smart enough to realise that!

I class this pilot as a terrorist in the same manner as an ISIS suicide bomber and the 9/11 hijackers, nothing more, nothing less! He used the plane he was charged with as a weapon against his passengers.

a reply to: and14263

Actually, no I don't see that and you are wrong.

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: and14263

Anything would be good! I would be interested to know what label we are giving to those who want to commit suicide and to take others with them!

Ive a few labels but not for use on ATS!

Sadly, if it's true... and again as other's have said, not justifying his actions in anyway.... When someone is in a deep black depression, the other people probably didn't even register in his thinking.

He saw a way out and took it.

Other's got killed and that's a hideous thing.

A tragedy in all true meanings of the word.

for the op.

originally posted by: and14263

This is why we are ignorant in this field. Because we fail to intellectualise the situation and let our emotions take over.

I dont know if they're trolls or whether people really are so full of hate?

I remember a thread about a guy who took his own sons life and then shot himself. The thread was dripping with "Dig him up and kill him again" type comments.
I tried to point out that what they were suggesting was actually worse than what the father had done because the father acted out of (misguided) compassion for his son (he couldnt bare the thought of his son being raised by his evil x) but the posters making those "I want to kill him" comments had no excuse other than THEIR uncontrollable rage!

When I pointed this out to them it was suggested I was mentally sick because I was trying to defend the man. I wasn't, I was just pointing out that what they were suggesting was actually worse than what the father had done.

Be prepared for flack from the Sheeple.

a reply to: and14263
I know and it seems to be on the rise. But I suppose everybody has there demons. However I have not kept track of all the goings on on the media, but I did hear of that crash. And if the pilot was on a psychotic break or something. Well, I would fault that more at whatever it is pilots have to go through to see that there mentally stable for that job.

However like I said. Call it what you will, but its not likely that if something like that happens that you will have control, if you did they would not chose to be in that situation. In fact that's the whole point. More so its even hard to classify it, I understand why ages ago people though in terms of it as possessions, by either a devil or demon or witch or spirit or whatever, because its really like that, once these people who are mentally disturbed or under some sort of influence or go through periods of psychotic breakdowns. Well the same outcome generally unfolds no matter what you call it, its like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, totally completely different people.

But ya! Saying that, they may not be able to not control themselfs. But that does not mean we should allow them in situations were they will become a danger to others. Though the hospitals and everything must be stacked, and the system stretched to limits with such cases because it seems to have been on the up for a while now.

a reply to: and14263

There is mental illness and then there is being bad and evil

You know, is it any wonder we have so many mentally sick people

This society is like a meat grinder and we throw everybody into it, the strong the weak the wonderful

Sometimes the mind can't take it and simply crashes

a reply to: Bone75

I am going to make sure I make this crystal clear since people on...well everywhere love to remove context.

I am not in ANY WAY saying I don't feel for your situation. And for that matter I will not dispute your feelings on your situation.

With that said, and posting this part as gently as I can...

YOUR situation and YOUR feelings are not to be generalized to all. Now you say

Deal with something like that, then get back to me with your rationality.

And I can not personally discuss your situation. I will however say that many people have come to terms with the loss of a loved one and confronted the convicted murderer and have been just fine. The problem is that for some reason, when it is mental illness, people seem to suddenly become somehow "more frightened" because they automatically think that if one person who suffers schizophrenia/schizoaffective has ended someone else's life, then they must ALL be killers just waiting for the trip wire to go off. I've read all over ATS for the last 7 years or so and see it all the time. People sit and say that you cannot generalize so and so yet feel free to come right back and generalize mental illness.

The worst part though, comes when people think they can somehow put themselves into the mind of a highly irrational person or think that they know what ALL suicidal or psychotic or manic feeling are like because they too endure them. No suffering is EVER going to be the same...ever.

So here is my story and how I "rationalized" it.

2000 - My cousin and her friend driving in a rather "nice" area of town stop for gas and within 30 seconds, the scene turns into a nightmare with my cousin getting slashed up and the friend being killed by a person with untreated schizophrenia. While I sympathize with you and hope that you cope well and wish you the best, I have to point out that you don't own the exclusive rights on grieving a sudden and frightening loss to someone who is ill.

Of course I am deeply upset. Granted the friend was not family, but she was close enough. And my cousin is scarred for life in every imaginable way. I do agree that someone so dangerous needs to be placed somewhere to ensure safety of others and him/herself. But I also believe treating things like this are much more relevant and efficient than tossing away a key after we put that person in a cage.

The rest of this is to anyone reading

I have done 4 years of psychotherapy/behavioral therapy. Two of the four years I spent doing emergency admissions for two local hospitals and one Chicago hospital. What I have seen there on a daily basis are 5-10 people coming through who meet "criteria" for mental illness. A solid half of those people typically fall on manic/depressed cycles and suicide is our biggest concern in the immediate.

The other massive concern are people who come in with psychotic features or psychotic disorders. Schizophrenia/schizoaffective/brief psychotic disorder and so on can be extremely dangerous. That's why fast acting IM drugs such as Haldol, Geodon and Ketamine exist. It slows the psychotic cycle down.

The point of all this is that you CANNOT look these people in the eye and see the completely flat affect joined with severe hallucination and delusion and tell me that they are in control or rational just because they happen to do something that takes barely any cognitive skill. I had a gentleman come in and he was under psychosis. Not a drop of any drug in him. I was in my ER office. He knocked on the door, grabbed me and said "out of the room...I am leaving" just before trying and almost succeeding at taking my head off with his fist. He found his clothes and phone and would have eloped but ten people and a syringe of Ketamine were waiting for him outside my door.

People have to stop thinking they understand mental illness and people need to stop pretending that people in deep seated psychosis or unbearable depression have the capability of being rational.

And even IF you happen to suffer mental illness (which I do), you STILL cannot understand anyone else outside of your own mind.

Bipolar I and GAD...that's part of me. My medication works well but I remember mania and depression and suicide attempts well. But I would be a fool to think I knew what ALL manic or depressed people feel like in the moment.

My best friend of 15 years is currently going through his third psychotic break. Cherish your sanity. Many who lose it never fully get it back, and they lose more and more every time...

It's way too early to know for sure if the pilot was having a psychotic episode. It's very easy to tell when someone is psychotic, I doubt no one else on the plane would have noticed anything.


On a similar note, I think there is a very bad habit on ATS of enabling mentally ills. I can be very open minded when needed, but I have seen countless mentally ill people posting on ATS (you can tell be their disjointed reasoning, the delusions of grandeur or the hallucinations) and there are tons of posters encouraging these people in their delusions.

I think it's quite problematic that the mental health of posters is a taboo here.

I've seen many forums where people having psychotic breaks are banned, not to discriminate them, but to protect them. These people need medical attention, not "stars and flags".


well, this was my rant. thanks for reading.

a reply to: Develo

Good point well made. There's a live thread at the moment which is doing more damage than good. I alerted it ages ago but nothing happened. It's hard though because on one hand we discuss things (perfectly sane topics) that get us labelled in the mainstream as mentally ill on the other some members ARE mentally ill. Who draws the line when people claim they are psychic etc?

I guess we just have to take it as one of those things.

Understanding mental illness is one thing, upholding the shirking of responsibility of the actions of one because of mental illness is a cop-out. I'm of full agreement that our mental health system in the US needs major overhauling, treatments & therapies in dire need of being updated, etc. What I'm not in favor of is allowing someone's mental illness to be the ticket out of responsibility for one's actions. If I lose my marbles and off my family & am eventually diagnosed as having one mental affliction or another whether or not it has a hand in a propensity for violence, that blame still lies squarely on ME. No mis-wiring upstairs will ever absolve me of paying for what I did, and I firmly believe it never should.

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: Develo

Good point well made. There's a live thread at the moment which is doing more damage than good. I alerted it ages ago but nothing happened. It's hard though because on one hand we discuss things (perfectly sane topics) that get us labelled in the mainstream as mentally ill on the other some members ARE mentally ill. Who draws the line when people claim they are psychic etc?

I guess we just have to take it as one of those things.

Usually I draw the line when people claim to be the reincarnation of Hermes or when they start posting 20 pages of numerology or analysis of biblical prophecies to "prove" something (which you can easily dismiss as a fallacy).

I also consider self-delusion as mental illness, especially when you can clearly see the mind of someone is incapable of treating the info you feed them because it would disprove their beliefs. I have no problem with things we can't explain, I have no problems with things that can't be proven. But I do have a problem when someone, when presented with contradicting info, pretends it doesn't change anything. And I do believe that, as per the definition, this delusion is mental illness.

But I doubt such a position would be very popular here

a reply to: Develo

It's a very hard delusion not to fall foul of. As humans we seem to have a propensity to reaffirm our own beliefs, no matter what evidence we are faced with. All of us are disillusioned in some way. Do I don't think what you refer to is mental illness but perhaps natural/innate... A defence mechanism.