Americans are turning away from organized religion in record numbers

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
IMO there are much better ways to teach morality than using contradictory religions.

Then why aren't we teaching anything that might encourage a greater sense of morality?

)

We are...

I think educational institutions teach morality; at least mine did. Perhaps not in a religious context but from a humanistic standpoint.



Morality doesn't have to be religious...

My parents taught me right and wrong before I ever went to church or school.

Too many aprents have abdicated responsibility for teaching their children.

Good for your parents.

But where you see sunshine and unicorns, I see decay.

Why do you think I see sunshine and unicorns? You don't know what I think! What arrogance!

Apologies.

I was under the impression that you claimed that morality wasn't in decline.

a reply to: beezzer

So many could benefit from moral teachings garnered from religion.

News flash! Moral teachings come from MANY OTHER sources, and most are MORE moral than any of the abrahamic religions.

So, no, beezz, it's not "a shame" - it's "about time."

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: beezzer

So many could benefit from moral teachings garnered from religion.

News flash! Moral teachings come from MANY OTHER sources, and most are MORE moral than any of the abrahamic religions.

So, no, beezz, it's not "a shame" - it's "about time."

So you believe that society is not in a moral decay and that we are in a moral upswing?

Because "CHURCH AND STATE" has been the buzz for decades now.

Are things all sunshine and unicorns in your world?

a reply to: beezzer

OK beez can you at least tell us in your opinion when things in the US were sunshine and unicorns?


Just give us a frame of refrence.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

OK beez can you at least tell us in your opinion when things in the US were sunshine and unicorns?


Just give us a frame of refrence.

Help me here.

So you are asking because you don't KNOW if things are better or worse?

There is a reference point.

Morality, in my opinion is in decay.

That means that is was better before, but it isn't better now.

Has there ever been a time when it was perfect?

No.

I hope you aren't being silly enough to assume that.

Was it better before now?

I think so.

Now we have to ask ourselves, what is different between now and then.

a reply to: beezzer
Beez. I wish you would elaborate more on what you personally see as "decline". Compared to history we are no worse, and probably better off than we have ever been as a species. History paints a very bleak picture of our morals and ethics in the past. We were rightly called barbaric.

Do we have moral and ethical problems today? Yes. But in decline? I'm not so sure about that when I compare the past to the present. All due respect, but I'm not seeing it.

a reply to: beezzer

So you believe that society is not in a moral decay and that we are in a moral upswing?

Why does it have to be one or the other? You are griping about manners and 'respect' - those aren't morals. Those are social constructs.

I believe we are in an emergent state of maturity, and will soon not need a "God" to give us "rules."

Because "CHURCH AND STATE" has been the buzz for decades now.

Well, in the country you live in, CHURCH AND STATE are separate.

Are things all sunshine and unicorns in your world?

As long as my children are being productive, are safe, fed, and housed, then I don't have much to complain about. Except the ceiling tiles in my bedroom need to be replaced, but you wouldn't count that, would you?

What rains on my parade and terrifies my unicorns is the NEVER. ENDING. WAR. Promulgated by RELIGION.

Religion basically sucks. It sucks the life out of people, contaminates them with fear, self-loathing, and a self-righteousness that allows them to physically and emotionally browbeat others. Just today, we have a Jewish warmonger here spewing propaganda and denouncing an Islamic warmonger who spews equally retarded, barbaric propaganda.

And you think religion isn't a problem?

Good grief - why OH WHY does the US have to be the 'parent' to the rest of the bloody world? These countries are out on their own - just like I wouldn't run to save my daughter from my son or vice versa, or interfere in their relationships - the Middle East and Israel and Northern Africa need to sort this S#!T out and leave us alone to save for retirement.

Bunch of juvenile, deluded boys fighting over who gets the 'bibi-gun'. (heh).

ETA: I just read an article about the differences between Netanyahu and Obama in world-view and philosophy.

Obama has repeatedly said that he will never allow Iran to get a nuclear bomb and threaten the Jewish state. But Netanyahu's trip to Washington appears to indicate that the prime minister doesn't trust that assurance.

U.S. power
In a wider sense, Obama and Netanyahu are also at opposite ends of a debate on the use of U.S. power that emerged as a fault line in American politics after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

Netanyahu's Likud Party is a much better fit with neoconservatives and Republican hawks who prospered in the early years of George W. Bush's presidency than with Obama's doctrine of "strategic patience" when deploying U.S. power abroad.

Go back to the 'parenting the world' analogy....TALKING is what needs to happen. I applaud Obama's approach. If we don't have to be bullies to get the job done, and in the meantime can present a civilized EXAMPLE of how nations should behave toward one another, then WE SHOULD PRESENT THAT EXAMPLE.

originally posted by: beezzer





Now we have to ask ourselves, what is different between now and then.

Now, you don't have to be riding in the back of the bus or have separate drinking fountains or be lynched for talking to a white woman.... It wasn't that long ago....

a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

This gradual and consistent watering down of religion in the west is a very good thing IMO, and long may it continue!

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: beezzer
Beez. I wish you would elaborate more on what you personally see as "decline". Compared to history we are no worse, and probably better off than we have ever been as a species. History paints a very bleak picture of our morals and ethics in the past. We were rightly called barbaric.

Do we have moral and ethical problems today? Yes. But in decline? I'm not so sure about that when I compare the past to the present. All due repsect, but I'm not seeing it.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how it is better.

The most anyone has stated is that it hasn't changed.

I know when I was a child, there was more respect. I know that when I was a child, the streets were safer to walk down. I know that when I was a child, there wasn't the gang violence, the shootings, the criminal activity we see now. I know when I was a child, you didn't beat your teacher.

But I'm an old guy.

Maybe I'm wrong and can't see the metro-secular awesomeness that is prevalent in today's society.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer





Now we have to ask ourselves, what is different between now and then.

Now, you don't have to be riding in the back of the bus or have separate drinking fountains or be lynched for talking to a white woman.... It wasn't that long ago....

But back then they didn't burn witches. So we have to say that it was better than the 17th century, correct?

Build strawmen all you want.

Or show me how things are better.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

Sounds like rose colored nostalgia glasses to me.

a reply to: beezzer

I tend to agree with you when I look at the actions and achievements of the men and women from "the greatest generation". If you're in your 40's, it's your grandparents. The people who lived through the great depression and survived. The people who lived through wars in Germany and France. The ones who built a solid foundation for their children.

The hardships they lived through are incomprehensible for people of today. The strides they made, the character they displayed was amazing. I think since most of their struggles and achievements are forgotten, we have declined in some aspects.

I make a living with technology, but I can also see how technology is making us lazy and allowing us to forget some of the best lessons life can teach.

a reply to: network dude

And the Boomers - their kids - lived through the Vietnam war, and before that (and continuing after it) the Cold War.

@ beezzer:
Are you old enough to remember air-raid sirens and "duck and cover" drills? Families building fall-out shelters below their houses?
No?

Terrifying. Are you old enough to remember your classmates' older siblings coming back from Vietnam, maimed, destroyed, hopeless and spat upon? Having the local student union go up in flames during a riot over that war itself? No?

Then don't talk to me about your childhood. Those things were a part of my childhood - and will never be forgotten.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

Sounds like rose colored nostalgia glasses to me.

Maybe. But I'm going by how I actually feel. It's not dependent on how many "likes" I get or what meme is trending to determine how I remember or what my opinion should be.

originally posted by: beezzer







Or show me how things are better.

It's better now because even in the 60s you as a black male could never have achieved the employment and social standing you now enjoy. For that to even take place...we as a nation have become more moral...not less!!

a reply to: network dude

Such narratives minimize the struggles of other generations. The greatest generation isn't the only generation to experience hardship nor are the only one to live through an economic depression. Also, not everyone recovered or prospered through the 50's and 60's. There has always been a poor class.

Oh and one more thing, there were draft dodgers in WWI and II than in Vietnam by a VERY large margin. The "Greatest" Generation is revisionist history.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

Sounds like rose colored nostalgia glasses to me.

Maybe. But I'm going by how I actually feel. It's not dependent on how many "likes" I get or what meme is trending to determine how I remember or what my opinion should be.

And I'm going by cold hard data and studied human behavior. You know science.