The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: budski

But surely that suggests even more strongly that gun control is needed.

FWIW, 11k is still far too many imo.

Dude... more people die from the flu! More people die just driving to the store! More people die from drinking and smoking cigarettes! Are you just ignoring all of the logical fallacies you are espousing or do you just not care? It has to be one or the other.

Its a sad fact of life that people die. Do you know how many people are sold into sex slavery annually?

Yet Americans and guns are the problem.

It has been said numerous times already just within the context of this thread but I suppose it needs repeating: you live in the UK American gun laws are simply none of your business. There is literally no way to peacefully repeal any or all gun legislation at this point. It will be (rightly so) as enemy action. If you think Americans will not do something about it you are either blind or cognitively impaired on a serious level.

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

a reply to: FlyersFan

LIE: Moore sympathizes with the "little boy" at Buell Elementary in Michigan who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school to kill a girl. Moore says "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl". (TRUTH: The "little boy" was the class bully and was already suspended for stabbing another child with a pencil. Since that incident, the "little boy" also stabbed another kid with a knife. Also- the "uncle's house" was a neighborhood crack house. The uncle and the "little boy's" father were, at the time, serving time for theft and coc aine possession. His aunt earned her living from drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased by him in exchange for drugs.

So do you think the boy is bad and does not warrant any sympathy?

I see a child who did not choose to be born into a the environment he did. If the article choose to describe the boy as a bully they may have missed the point - he is obviously having extreme emotion issues and no doubt considering his family.
But this society will deem him bad to the core and punish him, instead of seeing themselves, just born in a different environment.
Take the child and give him a caring environment and he would most likely grow into a well adjusted adult.

a reply to: budski

The world will always be a dangerous place. Removing weapons will not change that or make it safer.

Also GUNS CAME FROM CHINA AND THEN EUROPE. SO its actually Their fault.

Shall we stop feeding the troll?

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: budski

It's not idealistic it's tyrannical.

So wanting the world in general to be a safer place is tyrannical.

Yeah, that makes sense.

The problem is that if you ban guns, you only take them away from the people who would use them responsibly. If you knew anything about America you would know that guns would still be available to anyone with cruel intentions.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: budski

It's not idealistic it's tyrannical.

So wanting the world in general to be a safer place is tyrannical.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Said Idi Amin, Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong & Pol Pot...


Pull the other one with that tripe.

a reply to: Vasa Croe


You haven't shown jack.

All you've done is post data and then tried to use it to fit the facts you want to show, which is exactly what you keep accusing me of, when it's just not true.

Show where the increase of registered weapons is primarily handguns.
There is absolutely nothing in your figures to show this.

Without that data, your claims are simply nonsense because there is no correlation.
These are your rules, I'm just abiding by them.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: budski

But surely that suggests even more strongly that gun control is needed.

FWIW, 11k is still far too many imo.

Dude... more people die from the flu! More people die just driving to the store! More people die from drinking and smoking cigarettes! Are you just ignoring all of the logical fallacies you are espousing or do you just not care? It has to be one or the other.

Its a sad fact of life that people die. Do you know how many people are sold into sex slavery annually?

Yet Americans and guns are the problem.

It has been said numerous times already just within the context of this thread but I suppose it needs repeating: you live in the UK American gun laws are simply none of your business. There is literally no way to peacefully repeal any or all gun legislation at this point. It will be (rightly so) as enemy action. If you think Americans will not do something about it you are either blind or cognitively impaired on a serious level.

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

Don't worry, if the U.S. does decide to invade your country, the complete lack of gun ownership among it's citizens will make their job incredibly easy.

a reply to: budski

Do you honestly believe that I condone such reprehensible behavior on the part of my corporately elected officials?

It found that the most gun-restrictive states have significantly fewer firearm fatalities than the states with the least restrictive laws

Really? Did they include Chicago? I have a feeling that deaths from illegal guns was included in the statistics to boost the numbers. As for the "DGU" I wonder if they only count it for use against humans? Unlike those of you in Europe and other countries the States still has a sizable population of dangerous animal as well. Firearms prevent quite a bit of harm from them too. Europeans have a big issue with our gun ownership it seems, but the English had no problem with the civilian guns sent to them when they needed then during WWII. Sorry people but living is hazardous to your health.

originally posted by: budski

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

I would say historically England and her Imperialism / Colonialism is the main problem that set off this unwinnable war against the middle east / islamic extremism. You know the first national anthem played in Iraq was God Save the King?

Also - if our bogus corporatist sham of a Government continues to imperil us by upholding an empire and disregarding our Constitution, what do you think us citizens will use to correct the situation? (If voting, the courts, and protest doesn't work)

originally posted by: amicktd

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: budski

It's not idealistic it's tyrannical.

So wanting the world in general to be a safer place is tyrannical.

Yeah, that makes sense.

The problem is that if you ban guns, you only take them away from the people who would use them responsibly. If you knew anything about America you would know that guns would still be available to anyone with cruel intentions.

I did in fact say earlier that this is an idealistic view.

You could also say that the more violence there is in the world, the more people become immune to it and the devastation it causes.

You could also argue that this is a direct consequence of the monetary system we live in that pitches every person in competition with others rather than all people working together.

Borders, laws, governments in their present forms are set up to set people against each other, whilst the very few at the top reap all the rewards and manipulate societies for their own gain.

The gun industry is a case in point - it makes people fear each other, then it feeds off that fear and sells more guns because of it.

A gun is a tool of oppression dressed up as one of freedom, and until we as a species can move past the conditioning placed upon us by those who seek to put themselves above their fellow man, nothing will change.

I freely admit this is idealistic, but again, what's wrong with wanting the world to be a better place for everybody?

originally posted by: budski
a reply to: Vasa Croe


You haven't shown jack.

All you've done is post data and then tried to use it to fit the facts you want to show, which is exactly what you keep accusing me of, when it's just not true.

Show where the increase of registered weapons is primarily handguns.
There is absolutely nothing in your figures to show this.

Without that data, your claims are simply nonsense because there is no correlation.
These are your rules, I'm just abiding by them.

I don't need to show that. The increase is in weapons checks over ALL firearms. The link I just posted, again from the FBI, shows the DECREASE in ALL firearms related homicides....HANDGUNS are included.

YOUR OP article shows that handguns related deaths took a MAJOR downturn from 1995 on, which corresponds to the MAJOR upturn of firearms background checks.

In ALL categories of firearms there is a decrease, so there is no need for a specific subset.

See..I don't need to place a specific subset on it to make my point correct where you do.....mine blankets the ENTIRE category of firearms just as you tried to do with your OP.

Here....let me post another screenshot for you so you can comprehend:



KNIVES actually beat out rifles, shotguns and "other guns" combined each year....

originally posted by: SonOfThor

originally posted by: budski

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

I would say historically England and her Imperialism / Colonialism is the main problem that set off this unwinnable war against the middle east / islamic extremism. You know the first national anthem played in Iraq was God Save the King?

Also - if our bogus corporatist sham of a Government continues to imperil us by upholding an empire and disregarding our Constitution, what do you think us citizens will use to correct the situation? (If voting, the courts, and protest doesn't work)

And I'd agree with you 100%
But does the fact that the UK "started it" (at least in its current form) mean it's OK to carry it on?

The constitution has barely been relevant since 9/11.
I don't see too many people standing up and doing something about it.
Geez, you guys get more or less assaulted at airports, and stand for it because they told you it had to happen.

originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

I can give an example. The company that I work for has an office in one of the worst parts of the City. Employees and customers have been robbed and assaulted in the parking lot, especially after dark. When I have to go to that office, I always carry a 9 mm pistol concealed. I have been doing this for years and nobody has noticed. When I am in the office, the pistol is locked in a locker with a lock that only I have a key to.

A few months ago I had to go to that office for a meeting that lasted well into the evening. When I was leaving I was asked if I would give two of our customer's representatives a ride back to their hotel. It was on my way home so I agreed to take them. So the three of us headed for my car in the parking lot. Both of the reps were extremely attractive young women, I'm pretty good sized and in decent shape except for being on crutches due to a serious knee injury. We all are loaded down with laptops, cell phones and other pricey items. Between the exit and my car there are four men who are passing around a bottle wrapped in a paper bag. When they see us they put the bottle on top of their car and start towards us. About that time I move my jacket aside so that they can see that I am armed. They go back to their car and leave.

I honestly believe that if I wasn't armed, we would have at the least been robbed and who knows what else.

The title of this is "The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun". I find the title offensive and misleading. All of the statistics being tossed around here forget one thing, how many things have not happened due to somebody being armed? The event that I just described doesn't make the statistics because nothing happened.

The MSM is blatantly anti-gun. Any crime involving a gun is blown out of proportion. I've seen news stories where an Airsoft or pellet gun is treated the same as a .44 magnum. I've seen news stories where it is obviously self-defense and the reporter has to add the obligatory line "Police have not stated if charges will be filed."

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the largest number of gun deaths is suicide. Suicide gets lumped in to the gun crime stats because technically suicide is a crime.

As far as countries banning guns goes, that's your choice. It doesn't bother me in the least. It might have bothered that unarmed French cop that got blown away a few weeks ago. I thought that automatic weapons were banned in France.

One thing that needs to be considered is that the only people that laws affect are the people that you don't have to worry about in the first place.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: SonOfThor

originally posted by: budski

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

I would say historically England and her Imperialism / Colonialism is the main problem that set off this unwinnable war against the middle east / islamic extremism. You know the first national anthem played in Iraq was God Save the King?

Also - if our bogus corporatist sham of a Government continues to imperil us by upholding an empire and disregarding our Constitution, what do you think us citizens will use to correct the situation? (If voting, the courts, and protest doesn't work)

And I'd agree with you 100%
But does the fact that the UK "started it" (at least in its current form) mean it's OK to carry it on?

The constitution has barely been relevant since 9/11.
I don't see too many people standing up and doing something about it.
Geez, you guys get more or less assaulted at airports, and stand for it because they told you it had to happen.

And you all have government officials running around accosting people in their HOMES over TV licenses... And you stand for it because the BBC told you it had to happen.

a reply to: budski

I freely admit this is idealistic, but again, what's wrong with wanting the world to be a better place for everybody?

Are you simply unaware of world history prior to the advent of the firearm? Violence has always been a thing. Removing a tool, in this case firearms, from the equation will likely have little to no measurable effect on statistics regarding violence.

originally posted by: budski
a reply to: Vasa Croe


You haven't shown jack.

All you've done is post data and then tried to use it to fit the facts you want to show, which is exactly what you keep accusing me of, when it's just not true.

Show where the increase of registered weapons is primarily handguns.
There is absolutely nothing in your figures to show this.

Without that data, your claims are simply nonsense because there is no correlation.
These are your rules, I'm just abiding by them.

Your argument is really ignorant here. You are the one stating in the original OP that more guns = more death and you can't even show a stat on that.

You ask for evidence of something YOU stated and started a thread on?

Show me YOUR stat from any recognized US based data source on the number of guns increasing relates to the number of deaths by guns increasing.....your OP not mine. I have clearly shown where you are wrong in your statement based on nothing more than an article which you clearly did not read thoroughly.

I would suggest that this thread is based on a false premise and is simply trolling.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: SonOfThor

originally posted by: budski

Yes, americans and their guns are a problem, especially when they export the same solution to countries they invade, and then brainwash the population into believing it's all about "freedom".

If you've got the right to invade, torture, bomb indiscriminately, kill and lay waste to whole countries, than I have the right to question why you have this mentality, on the basis that it could be my country next on the list if we don't toe the line.

I would say historically England and her Imperialism / Colonialism is the main problem that set off this unwinnable war against the middle east / islamic extremism. You know the first national anthem played in Iraq was God Save the King?

Also - if our bogus corporatist sham of a Government continues to imperil us by upholding an empire and disregarding our Constitution, what do you think us citizens will use to correct the situation? (If voting, the courts, and protest doesn't work)

And I'd agree with you 100%
But does the fact that the UK "started it" (at least in its current form) mean it's OK to carry it on?

The constitution has barely been relevant since 9/11.
I don't see too many people standing up and doing something about it.
Geez, you guys get more or less assaulted at airports, and stand for it because they told you it had to happen.

And you all have government officials running around accosting people in their homes over TV licenses... And you stand for it because the BBC told you it had to happen.

They are not government officials.
They are a private company that scams people into paying something they don't need to pay.
Stupid people allow this to happen.
I don't.

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: budski

I freely admit this is idealistic, but again, what's wrong with wanting the world to be a better place for everybody?

Are you simply unaware of world history prior to the advent of the firearm? Violence has always been a thing. Removing a tool, in this case firearms, from the equation will likely have little to no measurable effect on statistics regarding violence.

a firearm is the modern weapon of choice and the one that historically is the easiest to use in order to subjugate others.

Violence has historically been used as a control mechanism, and guns make it easier to implement.