If There Were No Consciousness What Would Be The Point Of Material Existence?

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

So its back to the old who came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the observer or the observed? Hmm?

You can check right now if there is a separation between the observer and the observed. You are the observer and what is seen is the observed.
The present scene is constantly appearing different (observed) - whereas the present awareness (observer) doesn't appear to change.
Real (absolute) reality would be one that is never changing and never moving.
Illusionary reality would be that which is constantly changing and moving.

Rest and motion appear as one which creates the illusion of time and space.

The wave sees other waves until it realizes the waving is the ocean.

What I was asking was...was there a consciousness that existed before the physical universe...one in need of something to observe?

the simple fact that you ask the question creates your existence. That being the concept... The question and answer is irrelevant but the act of such is the meaning.

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

So its back to the old who came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the observer or the observed? Hmm?

You can check right now if there is a separation between the observer and the observed. You are the observer and what is seen is the observed.
The present scene is constantly appearing different (observed) - whereas the present awareness (observer) doesn't appear to change.
Real (absolute) reality would be one that is never changing and never moving.
Illusionary reality would be that which is constantly changing and moving.

Rest and motion appear as one which creates the illusion of time and space.

The wave sees other waves until it realizes the waving is the ocean.

What I was asking was...was there a consciousness that existed before the physical universe...one in need of something to observe?

Its extremely complicated because its so simple.... The awareness of consciousness is the observer, we are the one.... The eyes that behold the beauty that have the capacity to translate vibrations of material existence into something.... Are the eyes of the observation of the beginning, middle, and end. Simple rule to bring it all together for you...." Now is the only thing that's real." The past .... The future is seen in the observers eyes....God's eyes.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: ImaFungi


The “I” that I consider myself to be is the body that is now typing this. It is he who says “I” when speaking about himself. It is a fairly simplistic notion of the self, but one that is logical and verifiable through the simplest observations. I have never been given any reason to assume more than that. Therefore, I am not a something-or-other in possession and in control of a body like most people appear to assume about themselves.

I never insinuated that 'consciousness is a spirit that is trapped in a body and you are that spirit'.

The notion of “parts” of the body are logical, not concrete, entities. They are for descriptive purposes. But only when a heart is removed from the body by physically cutting it out, can the heart be its own entity, with its own boundary, attached to nothing but itself. We’ve talked about this before: “where does the heart end and the rest of the body meet?” There is no imaginary seem or lines between organs, like there is no natural seem or line on the ground where we draw borders on a map. So no I do not believe we are composed of separate objects, or different systems of matter, for they are never separate until they physically are removed.

But the separate objects exist and this is all I am pointing to now, I agree they are not physically separate completely, other than in the way in which no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, but they are categorically separate, as categorically a hydrogen atom is separate from a nitrogen atom, or due to the differences in atoms, and the differences in molecules made up by differences in atoms, larger things such as rocks, trees, hearts and toes can be said to be belonging to their own comparable classifications of conglomerations of matter, how descriptive is it to say 'everything exists', which is what you are saying, I am saying 'a heart is something here, toes are something here, this is a river and this is what it does and is like, there is clouds, and birds, and sand, and lava, and you are shaking your head saying "no, no, everything exists, there is only everything". That the heart is a heart, the lungs the lungs, the toes the toes, the brain the brain. The heart does things, different than the toes, in that you can not remove the heart and replace it with toes and expect the body to function as it did, because the heart is something which functions in a way, and the toes are something which function in a way. You are seeing the forrest and calling it a forrest, I am seeing the forrest and calling it a forrest and recognizing it is composed of trees and recognizing the trees are composed of molecules, and we are all recognizing that there are physical reasons the forrest exists beyond the forrest itself, which 'went into the equation' of the forrest existing.

When I say think of a number between 1-9999, what happens in your body? When I say, write me a poem, what happens in your body? When I say, think of a few child hood memories, and tell me about them, and describe things that you see, what is happening in your body?

I disagree with every one of your analogies to computer RAM, to software, to sense-data, to screens, to cars and automobiles. I thought you were speaking about consciousness, not computers. You nor your car do not feel full when you put gas in it. Your computer doesn’t itch when you play with your mouse. Tires are not grown on cars as feet grow on legs. Your imagination is describing absolutely nothing about consciousness until you can take the word “consciousness”, write it on a piece of paper, and glue it to what you are speaking about, which has only ever been the body.

I will be the first to admit that none of the things I described are conscious. But do you think consciousness is anything other than a material/energy system that processes information in some way? That 'moves material/energy' in some way? to be general, but to start somewhere.

Do you see the waves of light that enter your eyes? Where in your body would you best guess this seeing is taking place?

There are trees, a river, and mountains, and blue skies, and clouds, and sun, outside of your body, agree?

The light reflects off these things and carries on its way, agree?

The light from the sun that was more or less 'sun light' as a general characteristic of the lack of physical demarcation relatively compared to that same light that has reflected off those things (trees, river, mountain...) which now has relative characteristics related to the molecular make up of those objects, which than enters your eyes in its constant stream (during the day time), agree?

So, in day time, while looking at such a landscape scene as described, a constant stream/wall/wave wall of light is entering your eyes with the relatively placed 3d dimensions in relation to one another, this is to say, the light that hits the mountain and the light that hits the tree on average remains in relation to one another as the mountain and tree are in relation to one another, to present the data to and through the eye as the best objective representation of whats outside the eye, I am just being thorough, no tricks there that is quite natural. Where is this light, the information in/of the light, sent too after it enters the eyes? And what part of the bodys function, is it to see this information? Where is it being stored? And what part of the body, where in the body, is the organ/mechanism which 'at will' can reference any number of past stored data arrangements in pictorial and 'video like' form? And what part of the body, where, maybe how if you are ambitious, does the body invent concepts that do not exist, for example in sleep, or in creative aspiration, from a place of non external stimulation, that is to say, predominant free will, that is to say, sitting in a moment of no motion or action, but in desiring to 'be creative', yes you may argue that the desire to be creative stems from outside the body, and is hinged upon body relating things, like being creative why? whats the point? etc., but what part of the body does the event take place, where the body uses a space within itself, to bring 'to light' images and videos, that do not and have never in their fullness existed outside of the body, I am speaking of everything from inventions to artistic cartoons to fantasy and dream...yes, it is borrowed from outside, of course it is, but I have never seen outside a tomato with wings and fangs eating a banana that has a lot of hair and is floating in a volcano made of cheese, but right now inside my body 'I' am seeing this, and in my body 'I' 'choose' to see this, how did I do this, if you had to allocate a place where I am doing this in the body, where would you say it is? And how would you say it is occurring. of course to answer how it is occurring you can start at the beginning of the universe, and we can describe how cars are occurring to, because the universe started, and how computers work is well first the universe starts, and in my opinion there is no start, so go eternally backwards in time, and there is no cause or reason to anything or separation or difference or object only a dynamic infinity exists.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: ImaFungi


So this object in the body your speak of – point at it for me. Put up a picture of it. Some say its the brain; some say its the soul; some say its the entire nervous system. Let’s take a soul and set it on a chair; let’s take a brain and set it on another chair; let’s take a nervous system and set it on another chair. Now which one of these objects in their respective chairs is conscious and aware? Which one do you really think “you” are? Fungi the nervous system? Fungi the brain? Are you prepared to logically, rationally point to one of these objects and say “Look, that is consciousness”?

I believe and agree that you are your body, that I am my body. But I believe the body is composed of parts, that do different things. I believe that my body has control of its thoughts, and it does this via mechanisms in the head. If I am sitting down, I do not believe my body will walk away, I do not believe I will walk away, I believe my body has to tell itself to walk away, how does my body tell itself to walk away, who and what is doing the telling, how is my body told to walk away, how does my body know it should walk away, how does my body know to question whether or not to walk away, how does my body know to trust in its questions and its knowing? sorry for not editing my trains of thought, you dont need to answer those silly ones, I was reaching, well, you can blame my body for this behavior, its got a mind of its own.

Do you agree that it is possible to will thought into existence? I am not speaking of physical action here, I am speaking of pure thought, pure information in the body, that in the moment of being generated and observed and thought about thought about the thought that is thought about thoughts thinking about the thinking about thoughts that are thought about thinking about thoughts that think thoughts about thinking about thoughts.. that this can take place without effecting that which is outside of the body?

If you were to safely, meaning without causing death, remove the arms and legs of a body, what could the thoughts no longer think of, that it could before? (you can say things like running and stuff, but you can still think about running, this is why I stated thoughts that are not thoughts that cause action), pure imagination)?

Depending on how in my and truths favor you answer, wouldnt you see that there are more or less vital parts that are required to the observable physical and 'mental?' functions of the body?

Why can you cut off arm and legs and the body still produce thought, yet when you cut off the head the same cannot be said?

And yes, take out the heart, and the body cannot longer produce thought, but is it for the same exact reason as if the head were cut off?

If you mean to say that consciousness and not the body is affected by anesthesia, you’d be dead wrong. Everything anesthesia does it does to the body. If you mean to say that without a nervous system and what it does, or without a brain stem and what the brain stem does, or without a spinal cord and what it does, we’d be without “consciousness”, you’d merely be speaking tautologies. You are speaking about what you call parts of the body, calling this or that part consciousness, but you are no less speaking about the body. No, we would not be without something called consciousness without a working brain stem, we would be without a working brain stem – end of story. The function of an object is the exact same as that object. The brain is exactly the same as brain function. When the brain is broken or injured, guess what, so is its function. When the tow is broken or injured, so is its function. Why? Because the body and its functions are exactly the same thing. Tautologies.

Take 3 people playing an instrument alone. Than put them together, is there are a real difference? Can the sum of parts result in a greater product than the parts alone can, summed, but not pieced together?

You mention working brain stem; what does the term and object brain stem mean, and what does it mean for it to work? What is occurring when the brain stem is working? Is this important to know, is this a true aspect of reality? That there is difference between working and non working brain stem? Is the difference important, meaningful? Why is meaning meaningful? Why do differences matter? What are we talking about?

ImaFungi:

...do you think consciousness is anything other than a material/energy system that processes information in some way?

I know (and hope) you are not referring to consciousness being able to process energy radiated information (data stimuli), because logic dictates it can't do it. Consciousness is the data stimuli, every quanta of it. It is in the brain where the data stimuli is processed, where the language is transposed and interpreted into the quale-rich experience of reality we perceive.

I agree with you that we are dealing with a energy/material system, where the material system is energised, externally and internally by energy interaction (I call correspondences), with the end result being that the material system is imbued with a conscious state. Consciousness is an emergent condition in the body.

a reply to: NorEaster

Material existence brings everything else that exists into physical existence.

but thats a given seeing as material is physical. Now when we talk of non physical material we wander into the realms of epistemology...pick your flavour; ghosts souls gods gravitons

a reply to: ecossiepossie

If humans just disappeared of the face of the planet in an instant the planet would be ok better than ok it would thrive.

oh dear what a nihilst. Speak for yourself out of your own perceived "enlightment" Are you not human or the better question would be, why are you a self-loathing human?

And Im not using semantics the universe exsisted long before any self aware life forms came in to play.

You cannot state this as fact. Its all Gaia worship nihilsm.

It will exsist long after any type life self aware or not has been extinct for googleplex years

Will this be the basic tenets of your new faith/belief system? Are you a quasi theistic infiltrator?

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: MikhailBakunin
I simply ask myself.... Well, is the universe aware of itself? Since to exist it must be observed and one must be aware of its being. Since we are from this universe .... We are "star stuff", we are also the universe and are aware and observe as much of the universe as possible. So yes!



Existing is to observe and make aware of. Which explains the phenomenon of music... It is not directly creating life but it gives the awareness of life, as well as anything created.



The point of material existence without consciousness is to exist... Of course if consciousness was obsolete there would be no existence. But for the simple fact that we stated it is there, hypothetically speaking, we gave its existence. Therefore its objective is to exist.

So its back to the old who came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the observer or the observed? Hmm?

The Rooster from cocka-doodle-doodling. Where we came from is moot, where we are going however is not. Today is a dream you woke up from yesterday, and yesterday is a dream you will awake into tomorrow.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: MikhailBakunin
I simply ask myself.... Well, is the universe aware of itself? Since to exist it must be observed and one must be aware of its being. Since we are from this universe .... We are "star stuff", we are also the universe and are aware and observe as much of the universe as possible. So yes!



Existing is to observe and make aware of. Which explains the phenomenon of music... It is not directly creating life but it gives the awareness of life, as well as anything created.



The point of material existence without consciousness is to exist... Of course if consciousness was obsolete there would be no existence. But for the simple fact that we stated it is there, hypothetically speaking, we gave its existence. Therefore its objective is to exist.

So its back to the old who came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the observer or the observed? Hmm?

The Rooster from cocka-doodle-doodling. Where we came from is moot, where we are going however is not. Today is a dream you woke up from yesterday, and yesterday is a dream you will awake into tomorrow.

Well all righty then. Thanks for clearing that up.

originally posted by: booyakasha
a reply to: MissSmartypants

I think it has to do with our subconscious mind limiting us until we have complete understanding and control over it.

Its exactly like a dream. What keeps us from flying when we don't realize its a dream? Your own subconscious belief possibly? You understand your in a dream and your mind is creating that reality. Its the same here. Only we are still trying to remember that we are dreaming. Which takes a percentage of the collective conscious( or ones own knowledge of reality) to wake up to the reality that we are still in a living dream. Which is what we are working on as humanity. Which is what science is starting to figure out.

So we need to train our subconscious to overlap the conscious mind to create our own reality from the inside out. So Enough people think positive and have enough focused intention on a goal happening, it will happen. The final intention is only limited by the dreamer.

Enough focus on any desired outcome creates that reality. The more you realize you are the creator of your reality, the more possible it will be to fall though the chair your sitting on.

In other words...prayer changes things.