Does instant information exchange violate the laws of light?

a reply to: 3n19m470

What if we created some koind of nano material where there was no movement from one atom to the next? Could such a thing be possible?

a reply to: 3n19m470

I don't know but 'Space time" has got to have some type of static state ,like if I moved Mars, then every other thing would have to move to get its equilibrium, the force would be gravity. Or "Space time" I doubt whether it compresses, when pushed or pulled. The matter within the changing orbits might make it look that way, but that would just be the inertia.

anonentity :

if I had a solid rod that stretched from here to the other side of the galaxy, and pushed and pulled it to form a code like Morse. Then it figures that the moment I pushed one end the other end would displace immediately.

Sorry, but no. When you push down on one end of the rod in order to push the other end forward, you have to take into account the length and density of the rod. The energy you apply would travel as a wave along the rod, and certainly not at the speed of light, because that wave would be meeting the inertial resistance of the molecules and atoms. You would not be able to supply enough energy to go more than a few centimetres into the rod. Even if you hit it with an hammer very hard, the energy wave would not travel too far along the rod, it would dissipate quickly due to resistance.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Matter is mostly empty space. Forces (electric/nuclear) define its structure and behavior. Those forces are limited to speed of light.

originally posted by: anonentity

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: anonentity

No. The movement from one end of the rod to the other would propagate at the material's speed of sound. You could actually observe the movement of the far end (if you had a super thought experiment telescope) before the movement propagated the length of the rod.

Think of it this way: When you push on the atoms at one end of the rod, each of those atoms pushes against its neighbors and then those atoms push against their neighbors and so on as the force of the push moves through the object like a wave.

I wasn't suggesting that such a physical rod could exist, just using it as an analogy for the means of the instant transfer, of information, which seems to exist in the quantum state. But might possibly work in this way, if it was the fabric of Space time, that acted as a connecting medium.

Hypothetical gravity waves would be similar to this type of rod you suggest in that they are made of space-time, but they do not exceed the speed of light.

a reply to: anonentity

what your explaining with Rod might be phase shifting signal. The light being transmitted from a specific star has a frequency and wavelength which can be detected by some method of reception, then if somehow if it is possible to phase shift the transmitted signal (source light years way) the phase shift should occur instant at source since, it works like moving the infinite rod.

I always wondered how startrek sent messages to Starfleet across hundreds of light years, and they say many times in series that radio is ancient method of communication, so mabey this is what they use in the 23rd century.

a reply to: AthlonSavage

Star Trek has warp drives, teleporters and time travel devices. No wonder that radio would be considered as an "ancient method of communication"

originally posted by: joelr

originally posted by: anonentity

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: anonentity

No. The movement from one end of the rod to the other would propagate at the material's speed of sound. You could actually observe the movement of the far end (if you had a super thought experiment telescope) before the movement propagated the length of the rod.

Think of it this way: When you push on the atoms at one end of the rod, each of those atoms pushes against its neighbors and then those atoms push against their neighbors and so on as the force of the push moves through the object like a wave.

I wasn't suggesting that such a physical rod could exist, just using it as an analogy for the means of the instant transfer, of information, which seems to exist in the quantum state. But might possibly work in this way, if it was the fabric of Space time, that acted as a connecting medium.

Hypothetical gravity waves would be similar to this type of rod you suggest in that they are made of space-time, but they do not exceed the speed of light.

Instant communication would be possible across the vast distances involved. By quantum locked particles, one on the ship and another back at the base .If you modify the one on the ship, the other gets the same modification back at the base, the voice gets turned into digital code, which is massaged the other end where it gets unscrambled. Here I haven't violated the speed of light constant, I've bypassed it. Which makes me think that the whole Universe is quantum entangled. As the same effect is noticed on newly removed donor tissue as long as its viable, it seems as far as electronic resistance is concerned ,to behave the same as if it was still attached to the donor. Even from miles away.

Which seems to suggest that their is a state, where information can exit linear time, and then reform again within it. If information can do this ,and considering that as far as quantum mechanics is concerned "No information is lost" ,and that everything can be considered information. Then we have some interesting applications.

Pushing this line of thought a bit further, a photon exits a star in a galaxy far away, three million earth years later it hits our retina. Am I to believe that photon is three million years old? I doubt it, I think in its wave state it has exited linear time. Even the information it carries is information that depicts the state that its birth star was in three million years back. Has it in jumped from its wave state, into its particle state when it renters linear time? A critic would say that we know what the wave state speed of light is. But it has to have a speed as far as we are concerned because we operate within the confines of linear time, but has anyone told the photon that.?

Ipso facto...could we conclude that all wave states, exit linear time, but since we are "time locked" within this dimension.They have to have a speed to make sense to us?

originally posted by: anonentity

Instant communication would be possible across the vast distances involved. By quantum locked particles, one on the ship and another back at the base .If you modify the one on the ship, the other gets the same modification back at the base, the voice gets turned into digital code, which is massaged the other end where it gets unscrambled. Here I haven't violated the speed of light constant, I've bypassed it. Which makes me think that the whole Universe is quantum entangled. As the same effect is noticed on newly removed donor tissue as long as its viable, it seems as far as electronic resistance is concerned ,to behave the same as if it was still attached to the donor. Even from miles away.

Which seems to suggest that their is a state, where information can exit linear time, and then reform again within it. If information can do this ,and considering that as far as quantum mechanics is concerned "No information is lost" ,and that everything can be considered information. Then we have some interesting applications.

Pushing this line of thought a bit further, a photon exits a star in a galaxy far away, three million earth years later it hits our retina. Am I to believe that photon is three million years old? I doubt it, I think in its wave state it has exited linear time. Even the information it carries is information that depicts the state that its birth star was in three million years back. Has it in jumped from its wave state, into its particle state when it renters linear time? A critic would say that we know what the wave state speed of light is. But it has to have a speed as far as we are concerned because we operate within the confines of linear time, but has anyone told the photon that.?

Ipso facto...could we conclude that all wave states, exit linear time, but since we are "time locked" within this dimension.They have to have a speed to make sense to us?

Using entangled particles seems like a good idea but it turns out there is still a 50% error rate. I thought it would work too but I recently read a decent description of why it fails in Paul Davie's book Superforce.

I would think the whole universe should be entangled also because at the big bang everything might have been compressed together but it doesn't work out that way. If you don't entangle particles in an experiment first the entanglement features do not work. Therefore everything is not entangled.
But in a way, yes, everything is really just information.

As for wave functions, there isn't really anything to exist outside of time, it's just a mathematical construct where all the possible wavefunctions exist in a vector space. The function just describes where the probability or information will most likely be. But the information still is bound to light speed.
Remember that the "wave collapse" is somewhat of a fiction, the "waveicle" exists as both and shows exclusive behavior only when measured.

You are right about the age of the photon, it has no age. Not because it exits the time dimension and goes somewhere else but because at the speed of light zero time passes from it's reference frame.
Just like when we fly on a plane and age less by a billionth of a second, we don't exit time but our local time slows down.

originally posted by: joelr

originally posted by: anonentity

Instant communication would be possible across the vast distances involved. By quantum locked particles, one on the ship and another back at the base .If you modify the one on the ship, the other gets the same modification back at the base, the voice gets turned into digital code, which is massaged the other end where it gets unscrambled. Here I haven't violated the speed of light constant, I've bypassed it. Which makes me think that the whole Universe is quantum entangled. As the same effect is noticed on newly removed donor tissue as long as its viable, it seems as far as electronic resistance is concerned ,to behave the same as if it was still attached to the donor. Even from miles away.

Which seems to suggest that their is a state, where information can exit linear time, and then reform again within it. If information can do this ,and considering that as far as quantum mechanics is concerned "No information is lost" ,and that everything can be considered information. Then we have some interesting applications.

Pushing this line of thought a bit further, a photon exits a star in a galaxy far away, three million earth years later it hits our retina. Am I to believe that photon is three million years old? I doubt it, I think in its wave state it has exited linear time. Even the information it carries is information that depicts the state that its birth star was in three million years back. Has it in jumped from its wave state, into its particle state when it renters linear time? A critic would say that we know what the wave state speed of light is. But it has to have a speed as far as we are concerned because we operate within the confines of linear time, but has anyone told the photon that.?

Ipso facto...could we conclude that all wave states, exit linear time, but since we are "time locked" within this dimension.They have to have a speed to make sense to us?

Using entangled particles seems like a good idea but it turns out there is still a 50% error rate. I thought it would work too but I recently read a decent description of why it fails in Paul Davie's book Superforce.

I would think the whole universe should be entangled also because at the big bang everything might have been compressed together but it doesn't work out that way. If you don't entangle particles in an experiment first the entanglement features do not work. Therefore everything is not entangled.
But in a way, yes, everything is really just information.

As for wave functions, there isn't really anything to exist outside of time, it's just a mathematical construct where all the possible wavefunctions exist in a vector space. The function just describes where the probability or information will most likely be. But the information still is bound to light speed.
Remember that the "wave collapse" is somewhat of a fiction, the "waveicle" exists as both and shows exclusive behavior only when measured.

You are right about the age of the photon, it has no age. Not because it exits the time dimension and goes somewhere else but because at the speed of light zero time passes from it's reference frame.
Just like when we fly on a plane and age less by a billionth of a second, we don't exit time but our local time slows down.

If the speed of the photon, is at the measurable speed of light, because it has a speed "The speed of light" then according to the maths it should age. At least a little bit. It cant turn into energy because it is already energy. So the premise is that it has exited the timeline, if it has exited the timeline, it has also exited or at least is in some state at the border of the three dimensional Universe as well. Because you cant have both.

The 50% error rate could be ignored if the message was sent multiple times, and the probability of error reduced to 99.999%

Here the bit about the "wavicle" is interesting, I know Quantum is counter intuitive. But things at this level, should still be logical. If the photon is a particle, then it should have turned into energy at the speed of light. If its a wave, and hits something, then it stops and becomes a particle. Other electromagnetic waves, don't turn into particles when they hit something, so why should a photon, be any different. The act of observing ,in the double slit experiment, seems to say that, the photon has something of "mind" about it, as does Quantum entanglement. Which suggests at the mass level of the photon, some sort of telekinetic action is going on. Which might suggest its getting entangled with the observer.

originally posted by: anonentity


If the speed of the photon, is at the measurable speed of light, because it has a speed "The speed of light" then according to the maths it should age. At least a little bit. It cant turn into energy because it is already energy. So the premise is that it has exited the timeline, if it has exited the timeline, it has also exited or at least is in some state at the border of the three dimensional Universe as well. Because you cant have both.

What math are you talking about?
You can play with the Lorentz transformations to figure out relative velocities from your own frame or from an observers frame, depending on who's moving and all that. The transformed time (t') is like t-ux/cˆ2 / √1-uˆ2/cˆ2.

But the reference frame of c is t=0. If you could turn yourself into a light beam and travel 100,000 years to another star, the journey would be instantaneous from your point of view.
This is a well known fact of special relativity. You could argue against it if you have some equations that show there might be some kind of error. But that hasn't been done.

originally posted by: anonentityThe 50% error rate could be ignored if the message was sent multiple times, and the probability of error reduced to 99.999%

That's not how probability works. If you flipped a coin 100 times it would probably show something like 44% heads (or tails). The more times you flip it the percentage will continue to creep closer and closer to 50%. So it converges to 50% at infinity in terms of set theory.
So the errors never get smaller.

originally posted by: anonentityHere the bit about the "wavicle" is interesting, I know Quantum is counter intuitive. But things at this level, should still be logical. If the photon is a particle, then it should have turned into energy at the speed of light. If its a wave, and hits something, then it stops and becomes a particle. Other electromagnetic waves, don't turn into particles when they hit something, so why should a photon, be any different. The act of observing ,in the double slit experiment, seems to say that, the photon has something of "mind" about it, as does Quantum entanglement. Which suggests at the mass level of the photon, some sort of telekinetic action is going on. Which might suggest its getting entangled with the observer.

As to "Other electromagnetic waves", there is no such thing. All EM waves are also photons or waveicles. All EM waves can be measured as waves or particles. When they hit something they transfer some energy to whatever they hit and some of the energy can be bounced off the object. It does not become a particle when it hits something unless you try to measure it as a particle. But all EM waves behave the same, only the frequency or wavelength changes.

I don't see that the double slit experiment shows a photon has a mind. It's just an extension of the uncertainty principle where something always prevents us from gaining too much information about the particle.
To go into the metaphysics realm it might suggest there is something about our consciousness that effects the outcome but no one knows for sure.

a reply to: joelr

Thanks for your insight, it sounds like you actually know a thing or two. Whereas I'm approaching things from another view point. With regards to the coin toss at 50/50. Their are only two outcomes, where a message would have for the sake of argument 26 characters in an alphabet. If I sent the letter "A "a hundred times. It should go through as "A" fifty times, The error of the randomness would show in the randomness of the other twenty five characters. It could be sent two hundred times, to iron out any spikes, it wouldn't matter in this case as it would be a low energy exercise and instant.

So where , in the human condition, have we anything that is out of time and space, my suggestion is that it is in the action of the human mind itself, or consciousness. If we can assume that at least a small percentage of the people who have reported OOBE,s, etc. and some of the EVPs ,can be believed. Then unless were dealing with a large section of the human population that's deluding themselves, then we already have an environment that seems to exist outside of linear time, and the physical laws of this Universe. Just because it isn't PC. to include ,it is still a model that works, just as the "Wavicle" is a model that works.

The model we're using for the universe is wrong. Though they know its not material they still cling to the material ideas.

Its all waves and in a sense you render the holographic 3d world along with everyone else forced to buy the game and install it on your computer body suit, soul perhaps, perhaps playing it from soul.

In any case, aside from that. In a multiverse with wave function that is a HZ, Sound Universe, with resonance, vibration, its not so much about light speed and limits as its about syncronization of resonance or frequency. We all have a different vibrational fingerprint and if something is pulsing in unity with something else its like it is that thing. I think teleportation or portals in work on that principle of synchronization of resonance. I read or watched in a video something on that. But think this goes into the unusual quantum mechanics workings.

a reply to: Unity_99

Yes even physical science admits that their isn't really that much their, its mostly all space, and what we perceive to be matter, in fact relies on what we have been programmed to interpret, as matter. The fact that we don't fall into the floor, or walk through walls, is because according to science, is that the electrons of our body repels the electrons of the floor. The Electron is more a wave that is so fuzzy, it cant be pinned down.

Then coming from the outfield, when what you perceive to be your body is no longer viable, then the piece of consciousness perceived to be you, will still exist. As it always has, but released from the laws of this physical Universe, , If some of the EVPs are to be believed, they seem to suggest an interesting alternative . Akin to OOBEs and lucid dream states. Which strikes me as some sort of Multiverse. Where without a body you can manipulate certain forms of matter, more on a quantum scale, and more, the wave states of matter, than of larger objects of mass.

This seems to suggest that the non physical state of the personality, not only from the personalities in the EVPs that, exists in some sort of environment where the environment is constructed from a personal memory scape, which is interesting as our reality requires us to generate a lot of it from our own memory and consciousness as well. It seems they think their way around free from physical restraint. Like we do in our minds, but physically are unable to do. Some of the EVPs. also seem to suggest, as many and varied states as we find in this physical world. In fact I've heard one where the EVP says to someone near by him "lets scare them". Some have lots of people talking at the same time as if to each other. This I suggest is the environment, where dimensional restrictions no longer apply. But as far as heaven, God and all the other superstitions are concerned, they seem to exist, if the personality requires them, like a personal fantasy security blanket. Our fear of being in a state of "non being", has created a lot of irrationalities. Where in the sense of "Non being" goes we are already in that defined state, because nothing physical exists anyway.

This other state removed of all its superstitious irrationalities. Could be the source of all the anomalies, as at least part of our personalities are tuned in to the same state. This could even be the state where the Universe is opened to us, because the Speed of light law. Will forever thwart our desires to get to the other side of the Galaxy, in the form we exist in at present.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: joelr

Thanks for your insight, it sounds like you actually know a thing or two. Whereas I'm approaching things from another view point. With regards to the coin toss at 50/50. Their are only two outcomes, where a message would have for the sake of argument 26 characters in an alphabet. If I sent the letter "A "a hundred times. It should go through as "A" fifty times, The error of the randomness would show in the randomness of the other twenty five characters. It could be sent two hundred times, to iron out any spikes, it wouldn't matter in this case as it would be a low energy exercise and instant.

So where , in the human condition, have we anything that is out of time and space, my suggestion is that it is in the action of the human mind itself, or consciousness. If we can assume that at least a small percentage of the people who have reported OOBE,s, etc. and some of the EVPs ,can be believed. Then unless were dealing with a large section of the human population that's deluding themselves, then we already have an environment that seems to exist outside of linear time, and the physical laws of this Universe. Just because it isn't PC. to include ,it is still a model that works, just as the "Wavicle" is a model that works.

Yes if you could send an "A" and have it received ~50 times and the rest were random garbage it might work.
But with entanglement you can only send two things - say "A and B" which is spin up spin down.
You cannot encode an actual letter, it's spin states A or B or 1 and 2, whatever you code each spin state to be.

So with that you can never tell which letter is being sent. They both converge on 50%.

The out of body stuff is a different area, I know NDE's are interesting and there is debate about oobe being actual astral travel or only mind experiences. It might involve a different dimension but I don't know. It's likely there are dimensions beyond ours and outside of time. Particles might slip into a timeless dimension when communicating instantly during entanglement?

a reply to: joelr

That's interesting with regard the spin, but does it really cause a problem?. It might if the code was binary, but if the timing was augmented as part of the code it might not be. If the frequency of the message was the code it wouldn't be a problem. Say the action is instant, between the entangled particles. The sender has the choice of timing the transfer. Like message reads... first spin change ...delay of three nanoseconds.Then the next spin change. Three nanoseconds = 1 and from then on the code can be developed digitally. Then put though a decipher at the base computer. Which could even be a hologram of the sender, talking. Or even plain old Morse code?

With regards to the particles slipping into some sort of timeless environment? during the transfer, could be the clincher clue. Because if the transfer, is instant, in this model their cant be any "Space time" between the entangled particles. This could actually be the true nature of reality. Where "Mind/brain" connection deciphers the reality from chaos into reasonable cause and effect. If it didn't the data overload would be to much to remain coherent.Which points to some interesting implications which seem to stack up from all the anecdotal data. Like some sort of infinite information web, where the transfer of data is instant, because everything is entangled. It didn't have to construct the information into readable code, its the observer who is taught to do that in linear time, from the point of observation within its mores and culture. By purely concentrating on the question in hand. Which filters out the rest of the data. Which sounds like meditation and changing states of consciousness.

Which again tends to suggest, that the quantum entanglement is not a perceived state of the particle, but a cheat in the code. That allows their to be a perception of this propensity of what we consider to be matter down at this scale. Whereas all matter is locked into the universal entanglement. But cant be perceived to be so. Because coherence would be lost. The fact that the code is not perfect allows it to change. Whereas a perfect system would be finished, and thereby redundant.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: joelr

That's interesting with regard the spin, but does it really cause a problem?. It might if the code was binary, but if the timing was augmented as part of the code it might not be. If the frequency of the message was the code it wouldn't be a problem. Say the action is instant, between the entangled particles. The sender has the choice of timing the transfer. Like message reads... first spin change ...delay of three nanoseconds.Then the next spin change. Three nanoseconds = 1 and from then on the code can be developed digitally. Then put though a decipher at the base computer. Which could even be a hologram of the sender, talking. Or even plain old Morse code?

With regards to the particles slipping into some sort of timeless environment? during the transfer, could be the clincher clue. Because if the transfer, is instant, in this model their cant be any "Space time" between the entangled particles. This could actually be the true nature of reality. Where "Mind/brain" connection deciphers the reality from chaos into reasonable cause and effect. If it didn't the data overload would be to much to remain coherent.Which points to some interesting implications which seem to stack up from all the anecdotal data. Like some sort of infinite information web, where the transfer of data is instant, because everything is entangled. It didn't have to construct the information into readable code, its the observer who is taught to do that in linear time, from the point of observation within its mores and culture. By purely concentrating on the question in hand. Which filters out the rest of the data. Which sounds like meditation and changing states of consciousness.

Which again tends to suggest, that the quantum entanglement is not a perceived state of the particle, but a cheat in the code. That allows their to be a perception of this propensity of what we consider to be matter down at this scale. Whereas all matter is locked into the universal entanglement. But cant be perceived to be so. Because coherence would be lost. The fact that the code is not perfect allows it to change. Whereas a perfect system would be finished, and thereby redundant.

There are two reasons it's been proven not to work. One is special relativity, when 2 observers are separated spatially you can't have a special frame of reference where one is "first". You would need to communicate with light signals which would defeat the whole purpose of FTL communication.
SR says that the relative order of events which are spatially separated depends on the reference frame, and it is truely and physically meaningless to talk about the order of spatially seperated events.

Also the observer of the first collapse can't control which eigenstate (a definite state of a particle) it will collapse into. Therefore when the observer of the second collapse sees some eigenstate he can't conclude (being separated space like or far enough away that it takes light a long time to reach), that his collapse came from a particular eigenstate at the other end.

On the other thing I suspect entangled particles jump into a deeper dimension, out of our time, a dimension where all things are connected on a deeper level. Like Eastern philosophy teaches.
Maybe consciousness has the ability to tap into that, or comes from that, I don't know. Experiments with consciousness are not conclusive. Although there is a lot of mis-information out there.