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Jonathan Gruber Argued Abortion is an Economic Benefit

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posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:15 PM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

To this I say the same thing I just said to FlyersFan:

Emotional appeals are how bad laws are created. They are backed up with non-science and feel good rhetoric then when the laws are implemented, all it does is create hardship and problems. See: Probibition, gambling, prostitution, War on drugs, firearms, etc.

Give me ONE case where making an emotional appeal worked out for the better for society and maybe I will entertain such opinions, but I currently cannot think of any.



These issues you name here piled all together cant measure up to the magnitude of the abortion issue. A normal person would expect emotion to have a place here.


Good job deflecting. Emotion is attached to just about every issue. But the ones who can separate their emotions from the issues, are able to look at things reasonably and see that best course of action that benefits the most amount of people. In this case, pro-choice is the answer. Notice the label is "pro-choice" and not "pro-abortion"? That means there are some people who are pro-choice, but won't get an abortion themselves. You can object to the action but still be in favor of someone choosing to do it.




posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:15 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Emotional appeals are how bad laws are created.

Sure. No question. But it's not an emotional appeal to admit that there is a psychological impact with abortion. Gruber was 100% correct that abortion is financially good for society. But the balance is that it's also not psychologically good for many people. I'm not saying that abortion laws should be changed because of that fact, only that it be acknowledged to provide a complete and balanced statement.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.




Well I think most people will agree that there will be an emotional impact in some or many of the cases when it comes to abortion but there are ways to deal with that. Perhaps counseling should be made available to those who need or want it afterwards.

There are many things in life that have an emotional impact on people but when I see groups using that as an excuse to take away rights I have to point out some things such as. Fighting in wars has a huge emotional impact on those fighting and even the families but never does it come up for a reason to ban wars. We have systems set up for those effected to deal with the emotional impact.

In the end though we don't take away the right of someone to choose military service nor should we attempt to take away the right for a woman to choose an abortion.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
But it's not an emotional appeal to admit that there is a psychological impact with abortion.


As there are with hundreds of other choices people make in their lives. Some respond positively, some respond negatively. If someone says they're getting a divorce or having a baby, I don't go in and ask them if they've considered the psychological impact it may have on them... I don't think it's necessary to stress that abortion CAN have a psychological impact on SOME people. It kind of goes without saying that it's possible...

Abortion is a difficult decision for most women to make. And considering how most women feel about having a life growing inside them, of course there's the chance they may be psychologically impacted by abortion. They may be highly relieved (a positive psychological impact). This Gruber study does not address the psychological of emotional aspect of life choices. That's just not what the paper is about.

He's not making any moral judgments about abortion at all. It's not like he's saying, "Abortion is great because it saves money!" and that statement needs to be a balanced with a caution. He's just stating facts about the legalization and the circumstances of the children who would have been born without legalization.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Well that is a problem that the person getting the abortion will have to deal with. It's her choice after all, so she should deal with the repercussions. And yes, some of those are mental. That doesn't mean we need to make her life more difficult because we disapprove of her making the decision.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:20 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
What are you talking about? People are pro-abortion or anti-abortion.


No one is "pro-abortion". No one LIKES abortion. The term is "pro-choice". I am against abortion, but pro-choice. Using the phrase "pro-abortion" is like calling pro-life people "anti-choice".



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:23 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
I don't think it's necessary to stress that abortion CAN have a psychological impact on SOME people. It kind of goes without saying that it's possible...

Okay ... we are in different places on that. I think it's important. You don't. But like I've said, maybe because psychology is my degree and I tend to gravitate towards that area.


This Gruber study does not address the psychological of emotional aspect of life choices. That's just not what the paper is about.

Okay. But what I'm saying is that the psychological and emotional aspects are costly as well. That's all. If he's going to talk about the fact that abortion is financially good for society ... and it clearly is ... he should admit that it is costly in the area of psychological and emotional areas, including counseling. He just left that part out of what could have been a comprehensive statement.

Anyways, to the OP .... sorry but the stats back up what Gruber said.
Abortion brings down the crime rate and it's economically a positive for society.
Emotionally and spiritually ... well ... that could have a thread of it's own.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Perhaps I should have been more clear .... people are pro-abortion rights, anti-abortion rights, or they just don't care. Is that more complete and better phrasing for you?

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:33 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
Is that more complete and better phrasing for you?


I don't really care what phrasing you use. I don't think of it as supporting a "right" and I don't think of abortion as a right, any more than I think of gall bladder removal as a "right". I support choice. I know my position on the subject and that's what matters to me. I have never encountered anyone who was looking forward to having an abortion or liked the thought of abortion. IMO, it's something we should strive to reduce.
edit on 12/8/2014 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)




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