Why did you shoot the suspect 68 times

a reply to: TDawgRex

Oh yeah definately.
It's all that foreign liberal news cycle spin that makes me believe that the States has a problem with gun violence...

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: ChaosComplex

FunkerTactical is awesome.

I will scream it from a mountain top, as a police officer our provided training sucks. I train out of my own pocket to receive the training I think we all should have. Most police officers feel the training they are provided is inadequate.

But let's face it the guy in your video trains all day, every day. He trains with a very military style.

The cost of training every patrol officer like that would be immense. Not to mention people think we are too militarized already.

As a police officer it is always a lose, lose situation.

The cost would be immense, but if we cut spending on our current military presence around the globe and spent the money on making the police force what it really needs to be (insanely well trained in a hell of a lot more than just shot placement) it may be a step in the right direction. The militarization (mini tanks, machine guns, all the overkill stuff) is certainly not where I want the police force to go, that's a whole other monster.

And a military style trainer could teach the police force a good degree of discipline, restraint, and maybe some respect for the real responsibility they take on when they decide to wear the badge.

Imagine answering to this guy every day, no matter what your job is I bet the quality of your work goes through the roof Day 1.

a reply to: ChaosComplex

A Jelly Doughnut!

Sorry, that's all I can think of when I see him. What a great movie.

and Tourkey the pig: Thanks for your service.

originally posted by: Ismail
a reply to: TDawgRex

Oh yeah definately.
It's all that foreign liberal news cycle spin that makes me believe that the States has a problem with gun violence...

No, it's our news that constantly harps on it and hence, that is how the people perceive it to be. The good news stories rarely make it in the news these days. You have to actively look for them types of stories. But they happen more often than the bad news stories.

I didn't say anything about foreign liberal news cycle spin. That's just you trying to put words in my mouth.

originally posted by: Ismail
But you let the police make that decision, when according to the law, it should have been a judge.

So you find this bloke, then you just stop and run and get a judge who sits down and decides if the police can defend themselves....

Do you realise how stupid that idea is now?

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: WeRpeons

So what should the police have done when the man (who already murdered someone) started shooting at them?

I am mostly a lurker the last decade plus. . . and I read a LOT of your posts.

I have three words at first for you and everyone else excusing the actions of the police REGARDLESS of the reasons behind them to remember:[bold] "allegedly, allegedly, allegedly"[/bold]

Where did YOU get the story to make the whole situation for you ok??? Here are a few more words: "dead men tell no tales" to add to that even IF he WERE brought in alive who do YOU think is going to get the most press time on the ALLEGED actions he supposedly committed?

Look, I been at this a while and I actually have worked In Information Operations (now MISO- look it up) for a bit—I am here to tell you ALL is circumspect when it comes from the organization committing the act or a government. . . . all our ops we had the story ready to hand the press before we rolled out. . . .simple rule of thumb: “he who has the story out FIRST is likely to be believed and remembered the most” dead guy didn’t get squat for his side did he? Second rule: he that can have the LOUDEST and most pervasive story will be a close second to rule #1. Dead guy didn’t get any of that either.

Do YOU KNOW any of the folks allegedly killed? Did YOU first hand witness the events that LEAD to the shoot out???? Is what everyone is giving the “cops” the get out of jail card for even ADMISSABLE in court or would it be shot down as hearsay???? RETURNING (that IS all WE really SAW) fire to a large force armed with military grade hardware is NOT an admission of guilt to the items that SUPPOSEDLY lead to this final conflict.

I KNOW you are a police office that MOSTLY gets it. . . however, I feel that I must remind you and all the others that read this site; the police’s mandate is to bring the suspect in alive to face charges” period. . . . Deadly force should NEVER be part of that mandate in anyway shape or form outside of protection of those in immediate peril. High speed chases don’t cut it anymore for the same basic reasons. You do not get my blessing to bring someone in at “all costs”. Forcing mini-Wacos (I am counting on SOME familiarity with what lead up to that and other chances they had to retrieve David with much less risk) to retrieve a SUSPECT is NOT your mandate or ANY other “police” officer. Simple answer is to BACK YOUR ‘TAIL END OFF’ to a safe distance and get him when you are not likely to cost more lives.

[bold] YOU (and EVERY other law enforcement officer) more than ANY military guy IS 100% volunteer at any DAY or MINUTE you do not like your mandate YOU can go to something more in line with your tastes or with LESS risk. Military guys have at a minimum terms of service that they must at least complete- else be considered a deserter. [/bold]

Having worked in THE SYSTEM for a long time now. . . . and having as spotless a record as possible. . . and the highest levels of trust granted by government of the US of A. . . . . . I KNOW if I EVER see myself being wanted on the news for something similar- even knowing 100% I was innocent this would go down similar if I could not flee to an embassy- because at that point it IS self-defense!!!!!

I would likely be made out to be the BAD guy, EVEN innocent, though defending myself against military hardware with civilian arms limitations and a large force vs one or VERY few. . . like surrender has even a reasonable chance of success with trigger happy, ego filled buffoon’s that get preferential treatment when it comes to the law!

Then following surviving until custody and any jailhouse mishaps. . . there is the need to factor in OUR justice system- yeah were I in a similar situation- even innocent. . . I would be more likely to go down swinging. . .we pretty much KNOW at a minimum the legal costs alone would be staggering enough for most folks to off themselves shortly after it is over. . . .but I would fight to the death to get to the safety of someone NOT part of the problem to begin with! TRUST a COP? Hahahahaaaaaa.

And either way we would have the SAME preponderance of folks taking the official story. Geesh.

-LP

a reply to: launchpad

Is there any way I could flag this post a million times? You are spot on with your whole post. Thanks, brother!

a reply to: ChaosComplex

I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent.

Like I said I feel we could use better training overall.

As far as firearms training I pay money out of my own pocket to do so. It isn't easy when you take home only $2000 a month and have a mortgage.

As far as having somebody like a drill instructor as a supervisor we did in the academy and there are certain supervisors who supervise that way at my department.

That being said if all of our supervision were like that people would cry out "militarization."

Also to add the police don't have "tanks", some have armored vehicles, but please don't use the word tank. That is like progressives calling semi auto rifles assault rifles.

Also the only people in all of the agencies in my state that use fully auto weapons are the SWAT guys. Patrol officers use semi auto weapons.

Regardless, in free states a citizen can own a fully auto weapon. I personally believe the police should be able to possess what the citizens have and the citizens should be able to possess what the police have.

As of right now that is true.

As far as cutting military funding that is a topic that I am not very well versed in so I couldn't agree nor disagree.

a reply to: launchpad

Matter of fact

1. That shooting happened where I used to live.

2. I know people whom were involved.

3. I have seen family members, coworkers and friends shed tears over the loss.

4. I have spoken to people involved in the shooting that transpired in the woods and I have no reason to not believe them.

That is where I got my "story" from and I will be honest I couldn't give a s**t as to what you believe.

Not that you believe it but here is an article that dug a little deeper into the case and the murderer. There is a picture of the gun that the murderer used in the woods where he was finally stopped. Of course you probably think the police just placed the gun there.

www.theledger.com...

I guess it is easy to Monday morning quarterback over the internet from the safety of your own chair when there are no bullets flying in your direction.


www.polksheriff.org...

RIP Deputy Williams and DIOGI

Angilo Freeland was a career criminal that executed a human being and a dog. He then continued by shooting at SWAT officers forefiting his right to due process.

May he burn in Hell.

originally posted by: launchpad
I have three words at first for you and everyone else excusing the actions of the police REGARDLESS of the reasons behind them to remember:[bold] "allegedly, allegedly, allegedly"[/bold]

Allegedly stops when there are rounds being directed at you.

Some one shoots at me when I'm armed, I'm shooting back, not asking for hugs.

If I'm not armed, I'm running like hell!

The perp shot first and missed...the cops didn't. END OF STORY.

Cry in your Wheaties all you want, but I am glad that he is dead, dead, dead.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig


Ummm...So essentially what your saying is that LEO's like yourself forfeit your right to due process when you actively shoot someone...cause you guys and gals across the blue line are wasting the innocent left and right...

I want to hear you tell the world here that those black clad jack boots who cant seem to figure out what the correct address is...fire up innocent families and flash bang babies or blast old guys with TV remotes...deserve 68 rounds through the brain pan...because they just forfeited their right to due process by predating the innocent...

I'm sure you'll just chalk it up to...eh...wrong place at the wrong time and go slap butt while sucking down a cold one...

What a perversely ignorant statement.....and some idiots here had the questionable sense to star your post...

You just cant make this stuff up...

Definitely not in Kansas anymore here Toto...





YouSir

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: launchpad

Matter of fact

1. That shooting happened where I used to live.

2. I know people whom were involved.

3. I have seen family members, coworkers and friends shed tears over the loss.

4. I have spoken to people involved in the shooting that transpired in the woods and I have no reason to not believe them.

1. great- NOT relevant- would not hold up in court.
2. great at least you KNOW someone- still hearsay- would NOT hold up in court
3. great- not relevant to the action of the cops or REMOTELY hold up in court- someone you know cried? seriously kill da bastard!
4. more hearsay- irrelevant to court. the other dude WHATEVER he was 'convicted' of in the past- beside establishing character- certainly won't get jail time had he survived from it and certainly not the chair.

5 for ya--- in court the OTHER side gets to present. . . all we have here is the (alleged) KILLERS story. (they didn't get a trial either- usually don't even get charges for killing to NEED a trial)

That is where I got my "story" from and I will be honest I couldn't give a s**t as to what you believe.

wow man. sorry i seem to really struck a nerve with you. . .reactions can be telling though. lets just say i USED to respect you a lot more. (don't fret too hard- you PROBABLY do not know me and i actually had a lot prior due to your MOSTLY sound postings)

Here i am talking general problems with police use of force making themselves the judge, jury and executioners all in one and the "thin-blue-line" mentalitiy that should NEVER exist in the first place were all of you REALLY doing your part (integrity FIRST yada, yada, yada) . . .now we have a SPECIFC case? maybe i missed something in the OP or the rest?? hmm. i didn't mention any name. .. could have been one of MANY instances law enforcement went vigilanty and murderous during my career. . . Ruby ridge. . .and on. and on and on. whoever the person maybe it is NOT like this is a one time affair. . . this a trend or somethign much more dire.

Not that you believe it but here is an article that dug a little deeper into the case and the murderer. There is a picture of the gun that the murderer used in the woods where he was finally stopped. Of course you probably think the police just placed the gun there.

like i said specific case which you made it into. . . who knows. . . would not be the first time it happened - all we really know was it was recovered AT the scene- we have to take the word of the folks that "recovered it" the other guy don't get a vote or scream he is being set up if the cops killed him. This specific case? . . . hmmpf.

I guess it is easy to Monday morning quarterback over the internet from the safety of your own chair when there are no bullets flying in your direction.

ain't that what all ya story believers been doing??? difference ya'll be like high-fiven good game and crap on a blataint foul. . .specific case or not.

and . . . . Well- betya i've dodged a few more than you have in my time and things much more destructive than wee lil bullets too. even took a bullet once. 25 years in the military on both sides of the house been to a few places- my mandate was different but i still didn't go whole sell slaughter- just because someone returned fire. sure there have been times for clenching those lower cheeks but still . . . RAGE kill? makes it all ok to go kill the guy cause someone SAYS he is a suspect in a shooting and it is a SPECIAL protected class. . . .seriously? . .maybe not as much in the last five years of so. . .but if i had gone rage kill on folks in a mud hut just because fire came from a direction or SOMEONE SAID it did. . .there would be a tribunal and I WOULD face charges for it and have no UNION to protect me. . .we don't get an out for a BAD killing and our mandate IS (generally) to KILL. YOURS is NOT.

You so much MORE picked what you are into freggin go home if the mandate is too much. heck i am- i don't agree with leadership and have not for a long time. . . i am retiring and going home- gave my notice. . . . but that is STILL a year away. you can quit right now in the hour if YOU WANT TO. don't make it about the money. . .neither of us are in it for the money and frackly my retirement income at my level is nearly twice what you mentioned earlier in the thread. makes you motivations highly circumspect. . .respect? COPS rate about like congress these days- especially in these parts. POWER maybe?? Author-a-tay??

Tellya what though. . .i fear you police peoples WAY more than the folks i was sent to 'fight'. . . mostly i suppose is because YOU folks were handed a LOT more trust and i constantly am getting that shattered even on some of my more personal interactions. And for what it is worth (probably not much) . .my uncle retired as a COP- from Long Beach, CA. . . SWAT (i have his retirement gun so you can say we are close). My BIL was a sherifs deputy in Terrebonne parish until he came to his senses- Two cousins on the other side of the house are active LE now just up the road a piece from me in Farmington. . . ALL as bible bounching and devot as they come (meaning less and less these days- but supposedly says good character)- but ya know. . . i STILL see the "above the law" mentality from all of them and the looking down on the rest of us mere mortal and lesser "civies"- sticking up for other COPS simply becasue they are cops even on BAD shootings . . . grr. . . sickening really.

Angilo Freeland was a career criminal that executed a human being and a dog. He then continued by shooting at SWAT officers forefiting his right to due process.

May he burn in Hell.

REALLY? Man that robs yourself of more respect. you do not forfiet your right. . . .someone TOOK that from him when they took his life. . . had they had a bit more SELF CONTROL and got him to court in hindsite to the SPECIFC case you keep going on about or even my generic case. . . .they likely would have a slam dunk case and justice would be served. if he got the death penalty after his due process then i am all with you . . .THIS was not JUSTICE. this was a bunch of JERKS and/or LEMMINGS using badges to go vigilante and commit MURDER. . . the SWAT was in no danger that THEY were not forcing. i am not going to dig on specifics. . .don't care really- the outcome won't change . . .cops faliled to do their mandate. . . black and white issue. this exectution of him is actually WORSE then what HE allegedly did because a MOB of people were active participates. they were not even trying to take him in- and NO ONE is charging the killers! what is the back story on the execution he allegedly did? (retorical- don't care) maybe justice was slow and the victum deserved it??? who knows that is what happens when folks knee JERK react instead of following the process. the problem keeps getting WORSE as this is allowed to happen more and more.

killed a dog really? again allegedly. . .geeze Louise man! how many dogs are cops allegedly shooting these days? SERIOUSLY??? how many of THEM are facing charges? or WORSE? nada? i would expect. . .see therein lies the problem.

Until the "law enforcement folks" enfore it FIRST on themselves-and up those standards significantly HIGHER than they have for us filthy 'civies'. . .. . TRUST? RESPECT? well you certainly ain't getten it in more than one sense.

-LP

a reply to: TDawgRex

ah here is the Specific case derail. . . .TDAWG (who i also used to respect a lot more on his judgement before he jumped on the ol'perverbial offical story bandwagon and picked up a fiddle)

This was the second post in the thread in reference to the 68 bullet case above taken as an example to the broad problem being presented by the OP by myself. Most sorry all i did not follow the rabbit trail. can't clicke the linke here anyway.

but isn't that sort of a bait and switch thing when we were talking mentailty? whatever. my apploiges again.

-LP

originally posted by: launchpad
a reply to: TDawgRex

ah here is the Specific case derail. . . .TDAWG (who i also used to respect a lot more on his judgement before he jumped on the ol'perverbial offical story bandwagon and picked up a fiddle)

This was the second post in the thread in reference to the 68 bullet case above taken as an example to the broad problem being presented by the OP by myself. Most sorry all i did not follow the rabbit trail. can't clicke the linke here anyway.

but isn't that sort of a bait and switch thing when we were talking mentailty? whatever. my apploiges again.

-LP

No need to apologize. I've been shot at, both armed, and disarmed, and in both cases, I did what I had to do. And I will also modestly say that I am a pretty good shot at moving targets. But I am also aware of bullets that fly errant. I have a lot of training under my belt. Mostly as stated before, at my own expense. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do. (Nope, I'm not a LEO)

It just irritated me that the OP, basically started rubbing salt in raw wounds. And it also irritates me when people back up (though you really didn't to a degree) a false argument.

Looking over the last three pages, the OP obviously has good intentions, but really hasn't thought them through.

As I said before, it's not a fair world.

Maybe if cops want to run around all trigger happy ,the citizens should be allowed to protect themselves from cops and shoot and ask later . Cops are trigger happy because there are never really any repercussions for their actions oddly enough they seem to applauded by some people . Cops shoot a 5 year old girl in the head on a no knock raid .. ya he got nothing , cop kills some dude in Ferguson... nothing. maybe interesting to see a thread about cops who were held accountable in the usa . Hell if I lived in the usa I would want a gun to protect myself from the cops , but even protecting yourself against cops will get you looking like swiss cheese . the story reminds me of I think some isis video who like 10 guys all off loaded their ak's at some group of people after shooting them in the head . It is sick and wrong to sit there and take target pratice on an already dead body wtf is wrong with some of you people . ETA this is the mind frame of the cops there and some of you people are actually supporting it while at the same time whine about the police state ... unreal

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

So why is it appropriate, to train operatives to work abroad in a proper and rigorous manner like the SEALs and the Army Rangers, but train those who work in your communities, cities, and states, in a manner which is sub par?

Also, surely you recognise that law enforcers could be trained with the weapons they should have, like their own bodies and their sidearms, to a higher proficiency than they now have, using similar methods to those utilised by Special Forces groups, without training them in the use of military specific gear? Do you also recognise that the cost of that training would be a drop in the ocean if the US spent a sensible amount of money on defense, rather than an obscene amount?

a reply to: launchpad

I am curious, where are you getting YOUR story from? it sounds like you are just playing devils advocate here. We are all commenting based on the information presented. We are not in a court of law and nobody has any evidence to present. So while it's perfectly fine for you to imagine a gentle alter boy being hunted down by an over zealous SWAT team, the information we have been provided doesn't go that way.

While you are hugging your teddy bear, try to put yourself in an LEO position. Your job is to protect the public. A gunman just killed a cop and wounded another one. Is he any danger to the general public? If he surfaces near you and starts shooting, should you:

A: shoot back

B: run towards him with open arms asking for a hug

C: Hide behind something big enough to stop bullets until he runs out and hope like hell that he doesn't hit anyone with those stray bullets.


See, here on this forum, we can only discuss what we KNOW, or at least presume to KNOW based on the information provided. If you have more actual information that backs up your ideas, please show us and perhaps we were all wrong.
But as it stands, 68 times is just about right.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Out of curiosity as I have never been to the UK, are bobbies all black belts?

From what I know, even in the military, only the special OP's guys get this level of training. A grunt gets hand to hand training, but never at the martial arts level you are asking for.

I think it's a fantastic idea, but the cost in training would be immense. Who is going to pay for all that? and then, you need to pay the cops a bunch more to keep them, as a highly trained person, you would have a lot of $ invested in them.