Ferguson Grand Jury: No Indictment for Darren Wilson in Michael Brown Shooting

originally posted by: Taggart

Facts? Where have you used facts, I must have missed that bit.

Well you not being able to watch a simple video and comprehending it is not my problem. He called him a pussy while attacking him inside his vehicle, not after running away. You obviously have a serious problem with the facts. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: Sremmos80


I don't believe brown went for the weapon, he is a bully and bullies pick on easy targets not those with firearms.
You take officer wilsons word as fact, he doesn't have a horse in this race at all.

You would not believe anything even it if happened right in front of your face. It's obvious that you have some racial hatred towards White people, and hatred for Law Enforcement in general. It's sad that you allow that to cloud your judgment. Good luck with that in your life though. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: nenothtu
I'm not sure I understand the significance of the "25 feet" thing.

There is also witness testimony to consider. A minimum and maximum distance per witness testimony was established based on that by the grand jury. Grand Jury Volume 24 (pg. 88-90).

GRAND JUROR: I know we've heard evidence that Michael Brown after he turned around and advanced back towards Officer Wilson, and we have our diagram of the crime scene with the measurements on it and I just want to make sure I'm interpreting all of this right. So as far as physical evidence, we have the blood on the ground that was about 21 or 22 feet from where Michael Brown ended up. So we know for a fact that's a minimum distance he might have advanced and from eyewitness testimony that placed him at the corner of Coppercreek, that dimension looks like it is closer to 48 to 50 feet; is that correct? So that would be like an outer --

Witness: I'm going to look at this diagram also just so I'm sure we are on the same page here. this. So you're saying, obviously, would be zero right here, right.

GRAND JUROR: The distance was 48 feet

Witness: Correct, yes, sir. So we would say, and you made reference to the blood on the ground. So from this point here, the red stains in the roadway are identified what was later determined to be Michael Brown's blood as Items 19 and 20 on the key for the diagram. So Items 19 and 20, so the zero is here, identified as being 31 feet and 26 feet 7 inches, and this direction here, and then you're correct in saying if we continue to move west on Canfield Drive, Michael Brown's left foot and right foot for that matter are, 48 feet 2 inches, yes, sir.

GRAND JUROR: If I did the calculation that was 21 and a half feet?

Witness: Yes, sir.

GRAND JUROR: Physical evidence, eyewitness reports would have doubled that.

Witness: 21, 22 feet between the blood and where Michael Brown's body was when we arrived, yes.

Saying 25 feet is a bit of a convenience, since that's the what the measurement on the diagram shows as the scale, and it corresponds roughly to the distance Brown was. The diagram is close but not necessarily perfectly accurate. The actual distance is 21-22 feet, from the bloodstains to Brown, which they used to establish a minimum distance.

What they refer to as the outer limit, 48 feet or so, is from witness testimony - that's point 0. The 31 and 26 feet remarks are where the blood is from point 0. Wilson said that Brown stopped at the light pole, which is closer. Another witness said Brown stopped or in the sidewalk on the corner, which is further. This light pole is east from the last bloodstains. The corner is just a few feet further, designated point 0. They get the 21-22 feet from outer bloodstain to Brown by subtracting the point 0 distance from Brown by the distance from the outer bloodstain to point 0.

I'll post it again so you don't have to scroll back to it:


It looks like they were close to linking this with the audio recording of the last ten shots, as they mention it - noting that they figured a time of 6-7 seconds between the 3rd and 12th shots, which is pretty accurate.


As to why I'm using the last two bloodstains? Follow this logic:
We know Brown was struck at least 6 times, more likely 7 and potentially up to 9. We know that there are 6 shots fired, a 3 second pause, 1 shot fired, then nearly a second pause, and 3 shots fired. We know from the testimony that two shots would have been immediately disabling - the two wounds to the head. Presumably, those are the last two or three shots, close to where Brown fell (an aside: the half second pause between the final shots bothers me here). We know that two shots came in or around the SUV; one of these certainly struck Brown but the other is questionable - Wilson didn't think he hit him. The shot that struck Brown at the SUV is most likely the injury to his right thumb. It could be that this is responsible for the blood stains, but it is both a small wound and Wilson also testified that Brown put his right hand in his waistband. This means Brown was using his shorts as a makeshift bandage for his thumb injury.

Hence, my conclusion that at least 1 shot likely come from before the 3 second pause and after the first two shots - possibly even two, given the large bloodstains in the road.

So, suppose the last shot before the pause struck Brown (shots don't travel instantly, which reduces his velocity), and the blood instantly fell to the ground (it doesn't, there's gravity which reduces his velocity, though spray might increase it), and Brown fell instantly to the ground from the last shot (also wouldn't happen, which reduces his velocity). Given the grand jury determination of 21-22 feet from the outer bloodstain to Brown's body, and given that this shot is 4.69 seconds before the very last shot. This makes Brown's upper speed from there to death about 4.6 feet per second - a comfortable walking speed.

a reply to: Greven

I gather that you are basing most of your "fact finding" with the presupposition that this was murder of a black youth by a white officer. You are seeing what you want to see.

Several witnesses stated that Brown was "taunting" the officer as he moved, and even Wilson's testimony lines up with this. You don't know if Brown charged, then stopped, then walked, then stopped, then charged...

You want to think it was a leisurely stroll the entire way because that supports your presupposition that this black youth was killed by a cold blooded murder pig cop.

a reply to: raymundoko
Again you decide my opinions for me. You are fitting me into your narrative. You are wrong, yet again in this thread.

You know, I once thought you reasonable. Not anymore.

Here's a hint since you apparently haven't read the testimony well: Wilson said Brown never stopped moving towards him.
edit - here's that:

Wilson: When I passed the second [car], about that same time he stopped running and he is at that light pole. So when he stopped, I stopped. then he starts to turn around, I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground. He turns, and when he looked at me, he made like a grunting, like aggravated sound and he starts, he turns and he's coming back towards me. His first step is coming towards me, he kind of does like a stutter step to start running. When he does that, his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his side, his right one goes under his shirt in his waistband and he starts running at me.

Wilson: That was all done, like I said, the first step, his first stride coming back towards me. As he is coming towards me, I tell, keep telling him to get on the ground, he doesn't.

Wilson: I shoot a series of shots. I don't know how many I shot, I just know I shot it. I know I missed a couple, I don't know how many, but I know I hit him at least once because I saw his body kind of jerk or flinched. I remember having tunnel vision on his right hand, that's all, I'm just focusing on that hand when I was shooting. Well, after the last shot my tunnel vision kind of opened up. I remember seeing the smoke from the gun and I kind of looked at him and he's still coming at me, he hadn't slowed down.

Wilson: At this point I start backpedaling and again, I tell him get on the ground, get on the ground, he doesn't.

Wilson: I shoot another round of shots. Again, I don't recall how many him every time. I know at least once because he flinched again. At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I'm shooting at him. And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I wasn't even anything in his way.

Wilson: Well, he keeps coming at me after that again, during the pause I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground, he still keeps coming at me, gets about 8 to 10 feet away. At this point I'm backing up pretty rapidly, I'm backpedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches me, he'll kill me. And he had started to lean forward as he got that close, like he was going to just tackle me, just go right through me.

Wilson: His hand was in a fist at his side, this one is in his waistband under his shirt, and he was like this. Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me. And when he gets about that 8 to 10 feet away, I look down, I remember looking at my sites and firing, all I see is his head and that's what I shot. I don't know how many, I know at least once because I saw the last one go into him. And then when it went into him, the demeanor on his face went blank, the aggression was gone, it was gone, I mean, I knew he stopped, the threat was stopped. When he fell, he fell on his face.

Also, since you've made this claim:

Several witnesses stated that Brown was "taunting" the officer as he moved, and even Wilson's testimony lines up with this. You don't know if Brown charged, then stopped, then walked, then stopped, then charged...

You'd be quite able to show us where in the testimony this is, right?

Since you quoted "taunt" I did a cursory search through all the witness testimony and found no matches. Perhaps you can help?

Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

Maybe you should go be a cop. You seem to have all of the answers. Evidently in your world, no one would even bother to follow a suspect who had just choked a store owner, punched a cop, gone for his gun, and fled the scene. I mean...seriously? In what reality (according to YOUR view) would it EVER be ok for a cop to follow a criminal? To arrest him? To subdue him? To use deadly force to resist him? The "kid" in this matter was a 240 pound 18 year old adult who--AGAIN--choked a man to steal from him, went for a cop's gun, refused a direct order, and attacked a cop brandishing his weapon. But you actually badmouth the cop? Seriously?!

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: amazing

Let's talk about police training here too.



Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.



You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

Maybe you should go be a cop. You seem to have all of the answers. Evidently in your world, no one would even bother to follow a suspect who had just choked a store owner, punched a cop, gone for his gun, and fled the scene. I mean...seriously? In what reality (according to YOUR view) would it EVER be ok for a cop to follow a criminal? To arrest him? To subdue him? To use deadly force to resist him? The "kid" in this matter was a 240 pound 18 year old adult who--AGAIN--choked a man to steal from him, went for a cop's gun, refused a direct order, and attacked a cop brandishing his weapon. But you actually badmouth the cop? Seriously?!

one problem i see is that the radio call was for two suspects. wilson wouls have to assume that both of them were armed. when wilson gave chase after brown the other suspect was crouched behind a near parked car possibly armed. so then why did wilson feel safe enough to put himself between two possible armed suspects? the correct thing to do is keep the cover of the cruiser until back up got there.

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.



Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.



You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

you are right and from what i gathered brown threw the cigars into the cruiser when quistioned about the robbery then wilson while sitting down before ever opening the door he tried to subdue one of two possibly armed suspects by holding the arm of a very large man eaqual to his own size. that was a no win.

we have plenty of trained professionals out of work that would fit the jod description of peace officer better than many currently drawing a paycheck. it is for that reason that we are all safer today because wilson quit .

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

Maybe you should go be a cop. You seem to have all of the answers. Evidently in your world, no one would even bother to follow a suspect who had just choked a store owner, punched a cop, gone for his gun, and fled the scene. I mean...seriously? In what reality (according to YOUR view) would it EVER be ok for a cop to follow a criminal? To arrest him? To subdue him? To use deadly force to resist him? The "kid" in this matter was a 240 pound 18 year old adult who--AGAIN--choked a man to steal from him, went for a cop's gun, refused a direct order, and attacked a cop brandishing his weapon. But you actually badmouth the cop? Seriously?!

So let me get this straight. Because I ask questions, that's a problem? In your world, people can't question authority or even ask questions?

You better grow up, my friend, and join the real world. This isn't some fantasy video game, this is real life.

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

Maybe you should go be a cop. You seem to have all of the answers. Evidently in your world, no one would even bother to follow a suspect who had just choked a store owner, punched a cop, gone for his gun, and fled the scene. I mean...seriously? In what reality (according to YOUR view) would it EVER be ok for a cop to follow a criminal? To arrest him? To subdue him? To use deadly force to resist him? The "kid" in this matter was a 240 pound 18 year old adult who--AGAIN--choked a man to steal from him, went for a cop's gun, refused a direct order, and attacked a cop brandishing his weapon. But you actually badmouth the cop? Seriously?!

So let me get this straight. Because I ask questions, that's a problem? In your world, people can't question authority or even ask questions?

You better grow up, my friend, and join the real world. This isn't some fantasy video game, this is real life.

Yes, it is. And in real life when you go for a cop's gun you frequently end up dead. And you aren't asking questions. You're just making hateful statements about cops and "the system." Just saying...

a reply to: Greven

Ok, so the times are being sandwiched into the minimum distance? How will that affect velocity of travel if stretched out to nearly the full 48-50 feet? It would approximately double the average velocity over the course and make it at the least a brisk walk - I'm guessing a good bit brisker at the beginning than at the end, considering bullet impacts. It seems to me that the pause in shots fired ought to correspond fairly well to the initial bloodstain coming back from the corner towards the officer. If brown paused and bled, the officer wouldn't be as likely to be firing during that interval, then would fire again as the charge resumed.

The erratic pacing of the shots would indicate to me a target that was not moving at a steady linear pace, one that was bobbing or weaving, consistent with someone intent on advancing through the gunfire.

Why are we uncertain as to the number of hits on Brown's body? Has the autopsy not been released, or do we just not have access to it?

In the matter of where Brown stopped and turned, Wilson's line of sight may have been less conducive to an accurate estimate, due to his observational position and the smaller angle between Brown and the light pole from that vantage point. The secondary witness may have had a better angle to base the estimate of position upon - I can't say, since I don't know the position of the second witness. I.e. Wilson may have seen the pole a half a degree to Brown's right without a good estimate of the relative distances to each individually, and the second witness may have been more clearly able to see that Brown was several degrees beyond the pole towards the corner if he were standing, for example, on the other side of the street to the southwest.

A speed of "a comfortable walk" is pretty impressive when one is carrying several grains of extra weight in lead embedded in his body, and a "charge" is not necessarily a dead run - it can also be a determined advance at any speed. The main consideration is the apparent intent to get to the target one is advancing towards.

Every one has 20/20 hindsight, but in retrospect it may not have been the best decision Brown made that day to try to reduce his target profile by bending over in his advance and aiming the top of his head at Wilson. That was probably that last shot after the .53 second pause of indecision on Wilson's part.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Keep banging away at the same "evidence" that's already been blown full of holes. Maybe everybody will get tired and give up.

Wilson didn't have to assume anybody was armed. And even if he did, he still pursued te subject that attacked him. He didn't pursue the one that apparently ran away and hid. Again, I suggest you go read his testimony. He states that once the confrontation started he never saw the other subject again. And as much as you may wish it to be, an officer is 100% in his rights and responsibilities to pursue a subject who just assaulted him and ignore one who has, as you put it, run away and hid.

a reply to: Greven

Everything you just bolded supports what I said. You are the one who is unreasonable and your predetermined bias shows through. He was stopping, stutter stepping, feign running etc. You have no idea when or if he charged during that period of time. Ultimately at some point he decided to do a full charge.

I put "taunt" in quotations because that is what he was doing.

"What you going to do about it?"
"You're too much of a pussy to shoot me!"
"# what you have to say"
Stutter Stepping
Using his arms in a threatening/"attitude" manner.

Those are all forms of intimidation and taunting.

taunt
tônt/Submit
noun
1.
a remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.
synonyms: jeer, jibe, sneer, insult, barb, catcall; More
verb
verb: taunt; 3rd person present: taunts; past tense: taunted; past participle: taunted; gerund or present participle: taunting
1.
provoke or challenge (someone) with insulting remarks.

Source

And

Handwritten Testimony

The unidentified witness wrote that the 18-year-old Brown “has his arms out with attitude,” while “The cop just stood there.” The witness added, “Dang if that kid didn’t start running right at the cop like a football player. Head down.”

So obviously the Kid didn't just turn around and start leisurely strolling. He was obviously using his arms in some type of aggressive attitudinal manner and stutter stepping prior to charging. Just because he stutter stepped does not indicate that is when he charged.

a reply to: nenothtu
The grand jury established the distance from the turn-around point at 48 feet and the first bloodstains at 21-22feet from Brown's body. We can assume that to be accurate, as they built this based on crime scene evidence and several witnesses. Wilson's Testimony doesn't indicate that he immediately started firing at Brown as Brown came towards him, so we can probably assume Brown didn't travel the full 48 feet in 6.57 seconds. Even if Brown did travel that distance, that puts his speed at 7 feet per second - a jog, at best. An average human runs around 20 feet per second. It is a vastly different number.

Given Wilson's testimony, I don't see any bobbing and weaving. Wilson even testified that Brown was running at him like he wasn't there. He would have said if he was moving back and forth, and we know from the autopsy results that there is a steady pattern up Brown's right side. It is unlikely that the scenario you describe happened. Wilson keeps describing Brown as running or coming towards him. At one point he says "bulking up" but I don't know what on Earth that is supposed to mean - does that mean he slowed? Stopped? Kept going? No idea - and neither the prosecutors nor the jurors asked him to clarify, but he never says Brown paused - when he is talking about pauses, he is referring to the pauses in firing his weapon.

We are not entirely uncertain, but it is uncertain whether or not some injuries were made by a bullet entering and reentering - an arm shot that may have struck the chest afterwards and a graze or two. Dr. Baden appeared to testify that he was now fairly certain that 7 shots had struck Brown. In his statement to the media back in August, it was 6. Therefore, I went with the minimum of 6.

Wilson testifies that Brown was running at him. As you can see, that doesn't really fit. The only person who introduces the term "charging" is the prosecutor:

Prosecutor: All right. You said when he's coming back at you with his hand, right hand in his waistband and kind of charging, that's when you fired the last shots?
Wilson: Yes, ma'am.

There were two stopping shots. One went through his forehead, through his eye socket destroying his eye, through his jaw, and into his collarbone. The other went through the top of his skull, down and rightward. They were separated by at least half a second. I do not like that.

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

We don't always get to pick our battlegrounds - sometimes, the opposition picks them for us, and brings it to us for special delivery.

We can also ALL say what we think we might do in that situation, but can't predict how someone else might react to it. For example, you say you would roll up the window - I'm exactly opposite that, because I don't fancy the idea of losing my eyesight to shards of shattered glass when the assailant breaks the window out to get to me.

You have SCADS of leverage from the driver's seat of a vehicle. You have the entire car to brace yourself against to fling the door open and knock the assailant on his ass. He had only two points of contact - his feet to the ground - and a whole lot of body that can be unbalanced in an instant. Since brown was the one to try using the car door for leverage rather than Wilson, it seems Wilson didn't realize until then that a fight was coming. After that, the fight was already on, and he had to exit the vehicle.

It's generally procedure to leave a scene as close to pristine as possible for as long as it takes to search it out and investigate it. In the case of officer involved shootings, that is even more thorough than average.

a reply to: Greven

I thought you read the witness testimony, there were both verbal and handwritten witnesses who described a charge...I linked one of them above. Again, you entered this subjectively and that is never a good thing in a case like this.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

one problem i see is that the radio call was for two suspects. wilson wouls have to assume that both of them were armed. when wilson gave chase after brown the other suspect was crouched behind a near parked car possibly armed. so then why did wilson feel safe enough to put himself between two possible armed suspects? the correct thing to do is keep the cover of the cruiser until back up got there.

There is no, or at best minimal, cover in a cruiser unless you can get the engine block between you and whomever is shooting at you. That's hard to do if you are pinned in to the driver's seat and the assailant has free range of motion to go any direction he needs to to remove that engine block from the way.

Shooting someone sitting in a car is like shooting fish in a barrel. If a fight gets to the shooting stage, you DON'T want to be in a car if you can avoid it.

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: amazing
Let's talk about police training here too.

Wilson's actions weren't smart. We need a more detailed analysis of that.

You don't fight someone while sitting in a car. You have no leverage or movement. If it's a fight and shots fired and Brown is that scary. You don't get out of the car unless you realize that you probably will have to shoot him? Wait in the car, call for back up and arrest him later? Why leave a body in the street for almost 5 hours? Is that procedure? When do you realize that brown is aggressive? Well before he gets his arm in the car? Wind up the window lock the door and call for back up before there is even a struggle? What do you guys think about this stuff?

Maybe you should go be a cop. You seem to have all of the answers. Evidently in your world, no one would even bother to follow a suspect who had just choked a store owner, punched a cop, gone for his gun, and fled the scene. I mean...seriously? In what reality (according to YOUR view) would it EVER be ok for a cop to follow a criminal? To arrest him? To subdue him? To use deadly force to resist him? The "kid" in this matter was a 240 pound 18 year old adult who--AGAIN--choked a man to steal from him, went for a cop's gun, refused a direct order, and attacked a cop brandishing his weapon. But you actually badmouth the cop? Seriously?!

So let me get this straight. Because I ask questions, that's a problem? In your world, people can't question authority or even ask questions?

You better grow up, my friend, and join the real world. This isn't some fantasy video game, this is real life.

Yes, it is. And in real life when you go for a cop's gun you frequently end up dead. And you aren't asking questions. You're just making hateful statements about cops and "the system." Just saying...

Maybe you didn't see the question marks? Just sayin.

I'm talking about police training. IN my opinion Wilson did a lot wrong. as a Martial Arts instructor, I have some valid views on this issue. Questions need to be asked. Cops, these days, need to be better trained. That's point number one.