Man + Suicide + Knife = Police/SWAT + Snipers + MRAP + Murder

originally posted by: AnteBellum
a reply to: projectvxn

And I thought you misunderstood me,
it was me that misunderstood you!

Thank you for replying!

Just because I understand the tactical situation, doesn't mean that I agree with the presence of cops in this particular situation.

a reply to: AnteBellum
That's a good idea. They should get outfitted like corrections officers do when they do a cell extraction. Helmets, face shields, body shields, and protective clothing like they train K-9 dogs with. Then go six on one at the offender, one guy for each arm and leg, and the other two can crack heads with batons to subdue the person. Of course this is a lot of effort and may not be in the job description of cops. But I think if the cops gang up and do it like a cell extraction is done in prisons, it would spare the grief on both sides. I don't think cops want to kill people.

One thing I forgot to mention, does anyone find it strange that there was a camera set up in the dark room across the hallway from the room the suicidal man was in? Who put that camera there and why?

a reply to: Mikeultra

I was wondering the same exact thing.
Obviously, this wasn't a set up but pretty weird if you ask me. My only conclusion is that some people expect the cops to do wrong in these situations and try to exploit it. Like a settlement if they catch them doing the wrong thing.
Who was it that started that trend Rodney King?

a reply to: AnteBellum
Maybe this family has had the police at their house prior to this because of this troubled man, and they wanted a record of what transpired? I don't blame them for having the foresight to do that. It just seemed a little weird. I keep telling myself to get a dash camera like all the Russian motorists have. Maybe a GoPro if it has the date and time imprint on it? I thought perhaps this case might have had something to do with the Pennsylvania troopers that were shot Friday night in Lackawanna County, but I don't believe it does.

a reply to: AnteBellum

Nothing to see here, this is national SOP for cops.
As an older millennial, I remember a time when police actually used discretion; when cops were active members of the community and knew almost everyone/born and raised in the area; and thereby had a personal, vested interest in
PEACE KEEPING,
NOT
LAW ENFORCEMENT.

I grew up in a time when lemonade stands weren't confronted with SWAT teams.
When underage parties were broken without a single arrest; instead, cops gave anyone under the age of 18 a ride home and woke up/told the parents; but more often than that, a warning was given to keep it down, and then they'd (2 or 4 cops/1 or 2 b&w's) would stay and hang out in their car(s) or just in front of the house, just to make sure everyone was safe and no one was driving away drunk.

Then 9/11/2001 came.

The curtain was opened,
The rug swept out from beneath my feet,
And i was terrified.
Not by Muslim extremists, mind you.

I WAS TERRIFIED OF "MY"* OWN GOVERNMENT. (*quotes because the US Gov. does not represent, support, protect, nor serve me in any way, shape or form)

And suddenly it felt like I was teleported to a bizarro parallel timeline:
Oz,
Wonderland,
1984, and
Hell...
All tossed into a blender with humanity to create a New World Order snake oil.
(And I don't mean shape shifters and delusional nonsense- I'm referring to a plan for a global authoritarian government)

But I digress.


TL;DR...
The State has a zero-tolerance policy regarding dying- even by one's own hand-
THAT'S THEIR JOB!

a reply to: ltinycdancerg

I remember those days also and I miss them.
High school was a highlight of my youth, not a nightmare.
I drive by the school now when going to my parents house and it has turned into a nightmare. Police at every major corner, no kids outside hanging out being kids, all doors closed and locked with windows only opening inches due to restrictors.
Before having 2 kids I wanted to raise them like I was raised, unfortunately it is a dream now. Innocence lost for the sake of safety, frustration due to lack of freedom - is it any wonder our government is worried about us. With every action there is a reaction, they turned us into what we have become and now they are afraid of that creation.

Now we will see, will it get better or worse, it can only go in one direction though.

It's almost as if most of the people here hate cops regardless of the situation I mean seriously.

They tazed him MULTIPLE times and gave him MULTIPlE warnings for several minutes doing everything they could to AVOID shooting the guy and you people are ready to form a posse because the guy who just stabbed himself multiple times and had been tazed multiple times showing no signs of logic then lunges at the officer and the officer shoots him.

I'm trying to figure out why this is a problem?

It's clear that none of you know anything about this kind of stressful situation and like to arm chair quarterback with your blind cop hate rage.

The amount of rounds fired is typical of any situation where shots are fired be it LEO or armed citizen, it's called stress and most of the time the person doesn't even realize they've fired that many rounds.

With that said I expect to see you all at the next LEO testing because you can and are willing to do the job so much better.

a reply to: C0le

Here's a thought...

What if they didn't show up with a small army, what if they didn't bust down the bathroom door, what if they just called a negotiator/social worker to talk to the guy, what if....

oh never mind...this was probably the most effective way of dealing with situation.

Peace

a reply to: AnteBellum

If the recent past has shown us anything it is do not call the police if you need anything other than someone killed. Do not expect help, you probably wont get it. Do not expect kindness or compassion, that is out of the question. The police have become the kind of people we used to call the police about. And that was our only option besides deal with it our self.

a reply to: operation mindcrime

What if everything g happened the same way except the part where the guy lunges at the officers he instead put down the knife? The officers did everything the same up until that point, would you still be on here cop hating and acting as if you know anything about police protocol?

When there's a man with a gun or knife or any weapon related call, all hands are on deck. We leave nothing to chance and if it comes down to it our goal is to go home to our families,

Not every department has a negotiator, police work isn't like the movies, a suspect either has intent to do something or he doesn't, they will do it regardless of what you say, this man planned to die that day. It's just how it is.

And no law enforcement agency is going to risk the life of a counselor to talk a nut job down.

I know I shouldn't but here goes....(pffff)

originally posted by: C0le
a reply to: operation mindcrime

What if everything g happened the same way except the part where the guy lunges at the officers he instead put down the knife? The officers did everything the same up until that point, would you still be on here cop hating and acting as if you know anything about police protocol?

Now that is the second time somebody has called me a "cophater" in this thread and frankly it is getting old. Why is everything so black and white with you guys? I do not agree with how the situation was handled so I must be a cophater?!? What kind of logic is that?

I am merely questioning the tactics used in the OP's video.

You want to debate the fact that if they hadn"t knocked down the door nobody would have been in a situation where they would have feared that they would not return home to their family that day?

When there's a man with a gun or knife or any weapon related call, all hands are on deck. We leave nothing to chance and if it comes down to it our goal is to go home to our families,

The only threat, up untill they knock down the door, was the bathroom furniture getting damaged.

Not every department has a negotiator, police work isn't like the movies, a suspect either has intent to do something or he doesn't, they will do it regardless of what you say, this man planned to die that day. It's just how it is.

Well maybe instead of arming the police to prepare for a small war, investing in handeling these kind of matters differently is something to think about......i do not know.

And no law enforcement agency is going to risk the life of a counselor to talk a nut job down.

Any counselor will tell you that he is not in the business of taking nut jobs out but helping people.....

I don't know man....it really does seem like this situation could have been handled different.

I'll leave it at that because I'm done with being called names..

Peace

a reply to: C0le

In this situation the part that I am focusing on is when the cop kept firing AFTER the victim had fallen.
That's it, in the same situation I would have shot also, given the training I would have received as an officer. In essence it is the training that alarms me the most, the individual police are just following what they were taught. It is a frightening thing to not want to call the police when something like this happens, but the majority if represented by this thread seem to feel this way and that is not a good trend.

I know what you are going to say and I already went through it on the preceding pages of this thread.
Police are NOT at war and they are NOT soldiers. In certain situations it can be debated but in this one a higher standard should be followed, especially when so many of our soldiers returning home suffer from the horrors of war they faced. Only to be confronted like this when suicide, depression or PTSD gets the better of them in their time of need also.

originally posted by: C0le
a reply to: operation mindcrime

And no law enforcement agency is going to risk the life of a counselor to talk a nut job down.

So more and more law enforcement agencies feel the need for militarized death squads but the prospect of having a crisis squad to deal with people like this individual is just not worth the risk?

a reply to: FraggleRock

Right here is why we respond the way we do to those hamless victims who need help and talked down.

www.policeone.com...


Very few people on these boards have a clue about this profession.

You don't know what it's like to:

1. Put on the uniform knowing a criminal could win and you won't go home to your family.
2. Having to constantly watch your back because you are hated not for who you are as a person but simply because you have the courage to do a job very few are willing to do but are oh so willing to criticize you for.
3. Having everyone tell you how to do your job and lecture you about unrealistic outcomes and tactics to fluid situations.
4. Know that the same people such as a lot of the people here, gripe about you, call you pig, call you a nazi or jack boot, a thug or whatever else. Call you when they need help. And you still help them because that's what we do.


I strongly encourage all of the cop haters who know-it-all to participate in your local agencies ride along program for a few days if they will allow it so you can see that not only are we normal people who joke around, have fun, gripe about the same stuff, support freedom etc. but also see that your idea of how this job is done is unrealistic.

a reply to: C0le

You didn't answer the question. Just more of the same, this job is hard. No other occupation can shoot to kill with impunity whether there is a direct threat, a potential threat, or no threat at all. There is more danger in dealing with law enforcement than there is being law enforcement.

originally posted by: C0le
a reply to: FraggleRock

Right here is why we respond the way we do to those hamless victims who need help and talked down.

www.policeone.com...

To quote an other member in this thread :

originally posted by: semperfortis
a reply to: operation mindcrime

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I can link you HUNDREDS of incidents where a person was shot multiple times and continued on fighting.. Proves NOTHING...

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Right...apperently it proves nothing so let"s not get into that.

Very few people on these boards have a clue about this profession.

And here we have the core of the problem, this "elitist" (lacking a better term here) mentality where you guys assume the public has no knowledge about the dangers of your profession and because of that should shut up.

Maybe I do know about the dangers. And maybe that's why I did not choose this profession.

I know I have no say in this matter because I am not from America, I do not know what life on the street is like down there but to this outsider it seem more like the American police have grown bitter for not getting the respect they deserve and thus negativly stereotype the entire population because of this.

This freaking "Us against them" mentality. If you're bitter towards certain types of people you may unconsciously act in ways that agitate them and cause them to be hostile towards you, confirming your preconceptions.

Anyway....I have a hugh amount of respect for people who voluntarily risk there life for others but please stop seeing everything so black and white. The "shallow mainstream" is not the enemy.

You want a parade? A "police officer appreciation day"? Will that solve anything....?

Peace

a reply to: Another_Nut

They did use a tazer... that was what the officer in holding the yellow thing was. They tazed him, he collapsed in the tub. They asked him repeatedly to drop the knife. They even hit him with another jolt... He was not responding to the commands. The unit the police use do not let them shock you unlimited times, as well some units can only deliver so many shocks before they are dead. The man Appeared to then leap out of the tub and charge the police, obviously still a threat to them both at this time. Police are taught to shoot to kill, both these men are in the killzone for a knife, that man was going to maim or kill those officers. I would have done the same thing sorry to say.

People can harp on all they like about the fact its ironic to kill people with guns who hurt or kill people with guns and use guns them selves to do it.

But if people didnt shoot and kill people to make some money in the first place, there would be no reason for others to stop them using the only thing at their disposal to achieve it, namely more guns.

Theres no high ground here, if somone has a gun and is willing to use it to get what they want illegally then there wouldnt be a cause for people to need guns to defend themselves. Its a self defeating loop. Since theres so many in circulation you cant just be a hippy and say get rid of them or make their use illegal for all, its too late for that now.

Guns in places like the USA are there to stay, deal with it.