What do you guy thin about the new ID card Bill

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How is this idea going to stop a terrorist attack or a crime? The terrorists will most likely be here legally and so will get one anyway and as for the criminals, what are you going to do, ask them to show you an ID card as they are leaving the bank with bags of swag?

For an ID card to be useful, you need to know who you're looking for in the first place. If you already know that, why do you need an ID card? If someone has commited a crime or is planning a terrorist attack, these will not help at all. It's just another way of keeping the law abiding public in check, another way of extending government reach into every facet of our lives and knowing Tony and his army of cronies, another way of raising a bit of wedge.

Originally posted by Chris McGee
How is this idea going to stop a terrorist attack or a crime?

- Why not consider why countries similar to us that have them have them Chris?

From what I understand they make life more difficult for the criminal and the terrorist. They can ensure 'trails' are left and so on.

I doubt anyone is claiming the are a miricle solution, the point is they can be a help.

It's just another way of keeping the law abiding public in check, another way of extending government reach into every facet of our lives and knowing Tony and his army of cronies, another way of raising a bit of wedge.

- I don't think it's as simplistically black and white as that......and I didn't when these proposals surfaced from time to time under the last tory govs either.

Originally posted by infinite
So we have ECHELON, CCTV everywhere and now ID cards?? next it will be bio-metric,etc. We have become a tool of the government, liberty is now non-exstience

Im with you on this 100%.

Anyway this is meant to stop terrorism right? Or at least slow it down or somit. Whatever. How many terrorist do you know that will happily report down the cop shop or wherever to get finger prints ect? And assumeing they did will an ID card stop 'em running into London underground and blowing people up.

The U.S mafia on the 60s was making as much as the offical American Economy and they existed outside of any benifit system so whats stopping this lot doing it? If anything it will cause a rise to organised crime.

I think they had ID cards in WW2, didn't they? but they stopped useing that. Maybe there's a reason for this.

And what about travels who already dont pay taxes and also live outside the benifit system.

So quite simply it aint gonna work. Woohooo, another step closer to the book of Revelation.

GIVE IT UP

I'm kind of ambivelant on the issue and can see pros and cons on both sides but what's really ticking me off is the way this is being used as yet another money making scheme, we have to have one but we have to pay for it too, pop down to the shops and leave it at home....get stopped by the police and fined for not carrying it.

This bloody govt never misses a trick to squeeze the last drop of blood from your jacobs.

I would have thought that they(government etc would have enough
information on everyone without these ID cards, just another nail in the
coffin for freedom lovers.

next it will be bio-metric,etc

Sadly I think Bio Metrics is already here Infinite

Originally posted by ubermunche
I'm kind of ambivelant on the issue and can see pros and cons on both sides

- Really?
Cos I am hearing a hell of a lot of complaint and criticism and very very little from anything approaching a broad 'pro' side.
I've yet to hear or see a TV interview with anyone from a European country that has them talking about why they have them, why they retain them and how come they still consider themselves 'free'.

For instance, with all these flaws and faults that are being remarked upon about these cards I'd love to see some Spainards talking about why they still have them if they're such an expensive waste of time.....and failed to stop the Madrid bombings

but what's really ticking me off is the way this is being used as yet another money making scheme

- I've heard �85 quoted as the cost of a passport and the new ID card.

� A standard 10-year adult passport will cost �42 (up from �33) and a 48 page passport �54.50 (up from �40);

� The cost of a passport for a child will increase to �25 (up from �19);

� Amendments made to an adult passport will now cost �42 (up from �22.50) and customers will be issued with a new passport which will last for 10 years;

� The fee for a collective passport, for organised trips for schools and youth groups, will remain at �39.

� The costs for fast track services will be as follows:

� The fee for a passport applied for through the guaranteed same day premium service will increase from �78 to �89 for a standard 32 page passport, from �85 to �95.50 for a 48 page passport, and from �64 to �71 for a passport for a child.

� The fee for a passport applied for through the guaranteed one week fast track service will increase from �63 to �70 for a standard 32 page passport, from �70 to �71 for a 48 page passport, and from �49 to �60 for a passport for a child.

www.ukpa.gov.uk...

As you can see a passport alone can be very close to that amount already. Whether anyone is going to be 'making much money' out of this is debateable......
....what would you suggest, the gov set up a company to do it paid from taxes or insist that any private contractor(s) did it for little profit?

In any case if the card also acts as a more general 'entitlement card' it might well actually save most people money.

Instead of having to pay out for a separate driving licence alone it would recoup practically all the extra cost for the average person (a UK full driving licence is currently �38, www.dvla.gov.uk... ) , not that this point has been picked up by our media.

we have to have one but we have to pay for it too, pop down to the shops and leave it at home....get stopped by the police and fined for not carrying it.

- This is not true.
All the comment I have seen it very clear on this.
No-one is to be required to produce their ID card at the moment of being stopped and asked for it by a cop.

It'll be like your driving licence, you will be required to produce it in so many days at a Police station etc

Mr Blunkett said it would not be compulsory to carry the card

news.bbc.co.uk...

This bloody govt never misses a trick to squeeze the last drop of blood from your jacobs.

- You don't want to have an ID card? Fine. You'll have a chance to have a say in this in our coming general election, it'll be part of the manifesto you vote on......if you have a vote.

But let's not pretend this issue is party political.

Lots of politicians from all the UK parties feel that, on balance, we would be better off with the cards, not just those in the Labour party/government.
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Michael Howard has backed the scheme (for the tory party) and if you check the BBC link I gave you'll see Simon Hughes (for the Lib-Dems) would only say that the Lib-Dems have concluded against a scheme the last time they looked at it.

I myself would like to know a lot more about the idea but I am fed-up with shallow black and white 'debates' that do very little debating of the issues in the UK media......and which invariably raise and focus on false claims and 'straw-men' as if they were valid points worth spending time over.


[edit on 22-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by shorty

Originally posted by infinite
So we have ECHELON, CCTV everywhere and now ID cards?? next it will be bio-metric,etc. We have become a tool of the government, liberty is now non-exstience

Im with you on this 100%.

Anyway this is meant to stop terrorism right? Or at least slow it down or somit. Whatever. How many terrorist do you know that will happily report down the cop shop or wherever to get finger prints ect? And assumeing they did will an ID card stop 'em running into London underground and blowing people up.

The U.S mafia on the 60s was making as much as the offical American Economy and they existed outside of any benifit system so whats stopping this lot doing it? If anything it will cause a rise to organised crime.

I think they had ID cards in WW2, didn't they? but they stopped useing that. Maybe there's a reason for this.

And what about travels who already dont pay taxes and also live outside the benifit system.

So quite simply it aint gonna work. Woohooo, another step closer to the book of Revelation.

GIVE IT UP

THE NEXT step, when people will accept the ID card, is the verichip, that is the microchip implant, in the harm or forehead where temperature in higher...
Terrorism is just a way to make us scared (a big joke, don't fall for it!!!!!!!!!!!!)) so we will eventually accept the chip and all that crap that they wanna use to control us by saying it's for our own good, but it's not!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amelia
THE NEXT step, when people will accept the ID card, is the verichip, that is the microchip implant, in the harm or forehead where temperature in higher...
Terrorism is just a way to make us scared (a big joke, don't fall for it!!!!!!!!!!!!)) so we will eventually accept the chip and all that crap that they wanna use to control us by saying it's for our own good, but it's not!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yes, indeed but it verichip would be benifical despite its biblical meaning.

It is another step toward the new world order.

Dam shame as well i wanted to be a rock star guess that adolescent pipe dreams screwed.

I'm willing to pay for my passport if I want one but if the govt are so insistant on us all owning id cards they should be willing to stump up for the cost or at least part of it.

Other than that if it makes us safer, brings extra benefits and the real biggie helps combat crime then I have no problem.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Other than that if it makes us safer, brings extra benefits and the real biggie helps combat crime then I have no problem.

But it wont! How many criminals do you know that are going to head down and get an ID card and even if they did which they wouldn't when are they going to use.

Criminal 1: "So when we rob that house do want to bring our ID cards?"

Criminal 2: "Nah, probably not a good idea"

They are a useless waste of time they wont stop anything at all!!!

Instead of considering daft ideas like the domestic burgarly you've just mentioned shorty how about considering the instances where the requirement to produce an ID card or the convenience of doing so means a 'trail' can be established on criminal/terrorist activity?

(although if the burglars were subsequently stopped as they left the scene - even if not initially suspected - there would be a record of their being there, in this example would there not?)

Even the use of forged card(s) in such cases can ensure clues are left behind for the cops.

Like many people on this issue you still seem to have no answer as to why the Spainards are still keeping their ID cards yet they did not stop the Madrid bombings.
How come they accept the expense of them (whether paid directly or in general tax, what's the difference? The gov has no money of it's own only ours) and how come they still feel they are as a free and democratic society as any of us?

[edit on 23-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

I don't think anyone particularly cares whether the spanish have an ID card or not. Iran has a theocracy, shall we get that aswell? North Korea is a dictatorship, they still have it so it must be good, right? Cuba has been a communist state for years, let's get communism aswell.

Please explain how it will provide a trail. In the burglary example, they would not be carrying cards so even if they were stopped, the ID cards would have nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Chris McGee
I don't think anyone particularly cares whether the spanish have an ID card or not.

- Why not?
They have ID cards and it didn't stop the Madrid bombing yet they still keep the cards. Why?
I think that is a fair question to ask in this debate seeing as the failure of the cards to stop the attacks has been mentioned.

Iran has a theocracy, shall we get that aswell? North Korea is a dictatorship, they still have it so it must be good, right? Cuba has been a communist state for years, let's get communism aswell.

- Are you drunk again?
Spain is a member of the EU, a co-signatory to the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights), a modern western democracy and a reasonable comparison in this matter to the UK.

What the hell are you on about with Iran, Cuba and North Korea? In what way are they at all comparable to the UK?

Please explain how it will provide a trail.

- Because they may be asked for (or just become the accepted norm) to use for certain activities, for instance car or truck hire companies and travel tickets already ask for a driving licence or passport ID, this may become something where ID cards are required too.

In the burglary example, they would not be carrying cards so even if they were stopped, the ID cards would have nothing to do with it.

- The cops would have logged that they stopped and asked for the ID (taking basic info down at the time).....just like with instructing driving documents to be produced. It may all add to the information and help solve the crime.

The more i read into the ID card bill and what is likely to happen, i am starting to believe all the theories i have read into the new world order movement. I for one will not get an ID and become a prawn of the state.

Originally posted by infinite
The more i read into the ID card bill and what is likely to happen, i am starting to believe all the theories i have read into the new world order movement.

- I am pretty sure it is going to happen this time too.

Maybe we'll have them for a while and decide to get rid of them as before or maybe we'll keep them. Who knows?

Personally I don't believe in these NWO theories at all.
There's a loose set of alliances and affiliations as one knows and expects but we can hardly control the events in our own towns never mind the country or the whole world.

I for one will not get an ID and become a prawn of the state.

- You will remain perfectly free to do so.

.....and what?

(mind you, if this 'state' is so all powerful as you imagine what difference does any of it make? They have you already. Probably implanted you with something when you went for those 'jabs' as a kid! )

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

I for one will not get an ID and become a prawn of the state.

- You will remain perfectly free to do so.

.....and what?

So if we are free to choose whether or not we get an ID card then surely it makes the whole thing null n void???

Originally posted by shorty
So if we are free to choose whether or not we get an ID card then surely it makes the whole thing null n void???

- Not necessarily.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Not necessarily.

Thats it? Just not necessarily?

To go over what i've said before this is meant to fight crime and stop terror attacks how many criminals and terrorist are going to get these ID cards. Just the nice law abideing non-paranoid plebs of the U.K.

I like the word pleb Its a good word!

Originally posted by shorty
Thats it? Just not necessarily?

- Well it's true. You want more?

To go over what i've said before this is meant to fight crime and stop terror attacks how many criminals and terrorist are going to get these ID cards.

- Because some will have the cards anyway.
(and if they go with full biometrics that is going to be very difficult to forge so the likelyhood is most will be genuine.)

My bet is that within a fairly short time people will be using these in large numbers.
Especially if there are various incentives and it acts as a combined UK Passport and Driving Licence for about the same cast as those 2 separate things (which seems to be likely).
It'll be just as with a driving licence now - except driving licences aren't hooked into a 24/7 on-line national database.

Some people will get them to use as cover to appear innocent and innocuous. There will be all sorts of ways these will come into general usage in time.

I suspect that many businesses will start expecting their usage and people will just start using them more and more.
I imagine the requirement is not going to be one due to an instruction or demand from the law but the people around us in commercial life as much as anything.

(Imagine if car or truck hire companies started refusing to hire their vehicles out unless people show ID cards, they already demand a copy of your driving licence. That kind of thing)

Just the nice law abideing non-paranoid plebs of the U.K.

- Like any other European country that has them you'll find people will get along with them whatever.

I like the word pleb

Its a good word!

- Er, yeah. If you say so. Great. Enjoy.