Norman Finkelstein on Gaza conflict, Hamas goals and Iron Dome myth

Here is a very interesting interview on the Gaza conflict with Norman Finkelstein on RT. Norman Gary Finkelstein is a Jewish American political scientist, activist, professor and author. His primary fields of research are the Israeli--Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust.


He is basically saying how Netanyahu uses any reason NOT to commit to any peace, and how Hamas and Fatah new coalition government is the real reason behind the latest conflict. It is worth a watch, so I wanted to share with my fellow ATS'ers.

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Here is an interesting "Best of Norman Finkelstein" if anyone would like to get to know some of his of his opinion and ideas.


And more..

He is one person that many Israeli supporters will not debate simply because he is too knowledgeable. Also for speaking out about Israel he has been banned from Israel.

Can't watch the videos at the moment. Can you fill me in on what he says about the Iron Dome myth?

Thanks.

a reply to: samsamm9

Norman gets too caught up in the details o war crimes and humanitarian issues. He doesn't realize that this is simply a projection of a much bigger issue.

A war between the 8th century extreme radicalized muslim psyche versus the western world modernization, science, tech, culture etc.

It is well known that, as a child, Norman was highly influenced by his parents' (holocaust survivors) extreme views of pacifism.

He is driven by emotion. Not logic. He fails to recognize the issue at hand, the global issue that he failed to address in any speech that he has ever made.

An analogy = He is dealing with nuts n bolts trying to stop wtc form collapsing.

My heart goes out for every child who suffers. No child should ever have to suffer, it is shameful that any side causes this!
However emotion < logic, therefore i despise a knowledgeable person such as Norman, who ignores the bigger issue at hand and focuses on the heart-breaking, angering issues that are all too abundant on either side!

Finkelstein is a paragon of truth, justice and fairness, imo; he crushes that shifty lawyer Alan Dershowitz in debate as one of the youtube displays.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
Can't watch the videos at the moment. Can you fill me in on what he says about the Iron Dome myth?

Thanks.

He calls it a myth because it hasn't really changed anything. In operation Cast Lead there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets before Iron Dome after Iron Dome there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets. He basically calls it a myth because people claim how much safer Iron Dome has made Israel when in fact it hasn't made it any safer. Mathematically it has changed nothing.

a reply to: combatmaster

He is driven by emotion. Not logic. He fails to recognize the issue at hand, the global issue that he failed to address in any speech that he has ever made.

Not logic are you joking? He constantly points out the international laws that Israel is braking if he wasn't being logical then he wouldn't waste time pointing them out.
You keep mentioning the bigger issue would you mind saying what is the bigger issue?

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: combatmaster

He is driven by emotion. Not logic. He fails to recognize the issue at hand, the global issue that he failed to address in any speech that he has ever made.

Not logic are you joking? He constantly points out the international laws that Israel is braking if he wasn't being logical then he wouldn't waste time pointing them out.

It is not his facts that are illogical. what is illogical is that fact that he spends his entire life studying, and then uses that to concentrate on the tidbits of a small territory in the vast ME. He should use his power of knowledge to find a solution to the larger problem at hand.
He is very emotional.

You keep mentioning the bigger issue would you mind saying what is the bigger issue?

Read my post. i mentioned it!

I was able to watch the video and I think he made one very important point that sticks out to me.

Israel should pull back to it's internationally-recognized border and wait to see what Hamas does. If Hamas attacks.....the blame lies on Hamas and Israel has the right to defend itself. If they do not withdraw, Hamas has the right to be aggressive towards Israel because they are breaking international agreements.

Do any of you realize how profound that statement is?

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
I was able to watch the video and I think he made one very important point that sticks out to me.

Israel should pull back to it's internationally-recognized border and wait to see what Hamas does. If Hamas attacks.....the blame lies on Hamas and Israel has the right to defend itself. If they do not withdraw, Hamas has the right to be aggressive towards Israel because they are breaking international agreements.

Do any of you realize how profound that statement is?

Yes, it is profound.
Dr. Finkelstein is very eloquent in his logic.

Another example, a simple assessment on the question about Hamas not accepting Israel's existence.

Norman Finkelstein: Hamas is not obliged under international law to accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel.

If you go back for example 1947 Gandhi said he'll accept the reality of Pakistan, but he would never accept the legitimacy of the state of Pakistan.

Hamas is not expected to be held to a higher level of diplomacy than Gandhi..

Gandhi said: 'Pakistan is a reality which I'm forced to accept, but I don't accept it as legitimate.' And that's the same position of Hamas. They said we'll solve the conflict on the June '67 border.

a reply to: samsamm9

I think I heard him interviewed on KPFK last week or the one before. He was brilliant, his critic of the "Iron Dome" and how it doesnt' work was particularly ingrossing.

Thanks for sharing.

originally posted by: combatmaster

A war between the 8th century extreme radicalized muslim psyche versus the western world modernization, science, tech, culture etc.

1) Ad hominem (pardon spelling)

2) Who kept the sciences and arts alive during the dark ages (incuding your 8th century) and created the concept of zero and gave us alegbra and improved trigonometry. They determined the length of a degree and established the system of latitude and longitude. And so much more:

www.adc.org...

Here's another and a quote:

www.fasebj.org...

The biomedical sciences of the Arabic-Islamic world underwent remarkable development during the 8th to 13th centuries C.E., a flowering of knowledge and intellect that later spread throughout Europe and greatly influenced both medical practice and education.

and here's the kicker *if you can read it through ":

“The Golden Age” was based on several factors (5)⇓ . Muslims following the guidelines of the Prophet studied and searched for knowledge (1⇓ , 5⇓ , 6)⇓ . The Quran is clear: “The scholar’s ink is more sacred than the blood of martyrs”, while the Prophet promoted medical research preaching that “For every disease, Allah has given a cure.” (5)⇓ Communication became easier because the Muslim Empire united extensive geographic areas. Scholars travelled to teach or share ideas. Furthermore, the Arabic language became a unifying factor (4⇓ , 5)⇓ . Translations from Greek, Latin, and Chinese into Arabic were innumerable, thus removing language barriers for scholars. During the same period, Arabs learned from the Chinese how to produce paper and books became more available (5)⇓ . Libraries were established in Cairo, Aleppo, Baghdad, and urban centers in Iran, central Asia, and Spain, while bookshops with thousands of titles opened in several cities (4⇓ , 5)⇓ . Finally, The House of Wisdom, an academic institution serving as a university, was established in Baghdad in 1004 C.E. (5)⇓

a reply to: FyreByrd

Im not talking about those good souls.

Im talking about everything that followed...

Extreme radicalized is not traditional in the sense you reffered to!

We agree just miscommunicate due to my lack of accuracy!

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
Can't watch the videos at the moment. Can you fill me in on what he says about the Iron Dome myth?

Thanks.

He calls it a myth because it hasn't really changed anything. In operation Cast Lead there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets before Iron Dome after Iron Dome there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets. He basically calls it a myth because people claim how much safer Iron Dome has made Israel when in fact it hasn't made it any safer. Mathematically it has changed nothing.

Exactly.. Iron Dome only activates when a rocket is heading towards a populated area, but i believe the rockets generally kill people in the less populated areas.

Also, with or without iron dome, israelis are more likely to be struck by lightening than a rocket.

The girl in the first video, when she starts crying, it just makes you want to roll your eyes. She is young and hasn't suffered, crying because she's offended for Israel, and she's talking to someone whose entire family was in concentration camps.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: samsamm9

I think I heard him interviewed on KPFK last week or the one before. He was brilliant, his critic of the "Iron Dome" and how it doesnt' work was particularly ingrossing.

Thanks for sharing.

It's my pleasure. I thought he was brilliant as well.

The first video might be over 40 minutes but I believe it is worth the time.
This conflict is complex and it can't be understood with "mantra" like propaganda >>>> Hamas Hamas Hamas>>>Rockets Rockets Rockets...... The people spewing these lies are just letting us witness how not original they really are or showing us how they have no idea what they're talking about ....

For the sake of sharing real information about the Gaza conflict, I will repost a video posted on another thread.
In my opinion these are very important details about the conflicts.

DENY IGNORANCE

a reply to: samsamm9

I linked one of his articles from 1989 in the Hamas/Israel thread.

This man's knowledge on the subject is ridiculous.

But his life has been ruined over his criticism of the Israeli government. He's been attacked incessantly, called a "self hating Jew", a holocaust denier, he was denied tenure at DePaul University both at the urging of Dershowitz and Rahm Emanuel with his massive $100,000,000 gift in tax payer money to the university.

He cant find work and the worst part is that hes now been blacklisted by BOTH sides of the conflict.

Its just so sad and so wrong, they way they ruined this man's life simply because he dared to condemn the actions of the israeli government.

Approaching 60, Norman Finkelstein reflects,

Finkelstein bluntly describes the loss of his profession, teacher, and the shift in his political role from being a leader on campuses to being marginalized by Palestinian solidarity activists because of his criticism of the Boycott Divestment Sanctions movement (BDS) as a cult movement.

Finkelstein has also alienated some activists by insisting that the only viable path in the struggle for justice for Palestinians is to work for a two-state solution, a position he defends in the interview.

ETA*

Realizing that SkepticOverlord is no fan of RT, I feel like its a good thing that someone is giving this man a voice.

Am 10 minutes in to the video and just wow. He is dropping all kinds of gems.

AND he called Tony Blair a vampire, haha.

"Madeleine 'not so bright'", haha.

"Obama is narcissistic and sinister".

At 26:50 he goes into Hamas' "rockets", epic info, breaking down the fact that "Iron Dome" has done nothing and that the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists has said that the Hamas "rockets" are a "few steps above homemade fireworks". Though I disagree with his reasoning as to why they are promoting "Iron Dome". Its so they can spin the reason as to why the "rockets" are doing no harm, that they are able to stop them vs the fact that they are virtually harmless.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
I was able to watch the video and I think he made one very important point that sticks out to me.

Israel should pull back to it's internationally-recognized border and wait to see what Hamas does. If Hamas attacks.....the blame lies on Hamas and Israel has the right to defend itself. If they do not withdraw, Hamas has the right to be aggressive towards Israel because they are breaking international agreements.

Do any of you realize how profound that statement is?

I would possibly be open to that .. with the caveat that if Hamas/Palestinians attacked at all Israel permanently takes all their land they want.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
Can't watch the videos at the moment. Can you fill me in on what he says about the Iron Dome myth?

Thanks.

He calls it a myth because it hasn't really changed anything. In operation Cast Lead there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets before Iron Dome after Iron Dome there were three deaths due to Hamas rockets. He basically calls it a myth because people claim how much safer Iron Dome has made Israel when in fact it hasn't made it any safer. Mathematically it has changed nothing.

Exactly.. Iron Dome only activates when a rocket is heading towards a populated area, but i believe the rockets generally kill people in the less populated areas.

Also, with or without iron dome, israelis are more likely to be struck by lightening than a rocket.

Hilarious you vile haters latched on to that. You do realize that post was ended because it was a lie. The person who made the post even admitted it was a lie, but they wanted to post it anyways.

You guys love lies though, so it's perfect.