Turkey sends aid to Gaza with a fleet of warships

originally posted by: intrepid
That's what I'm trying to determine and that map didn't help.

The blockade by Israel, however the UN said they should have stopped the ships closer to shore

In regards to the Gaza blockade, the commission writes:

Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza ... The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.[301]

The report was also critical of the flotilla, describing it as "reckless". Turkey was criticized as well for not doing more to persuade flotilla participants to avoid armed conflict with Israeli soldiers

www.jpost.com...

a reply to: intrepid

YES, for hundreds of years, here is a list:

en.wikipedia.org...

It is a part of war. Kennedy certainly used it.

a reply to: whywhynot

If it's in anothers waters then how can that be defended lawfully if an ally decides to breach it?

a reply to: intrepid

It is a circumstance of the stronger party wins. Legal doesn't really matter. The Cuban missile blockage could be instructive. Kennedy just said no. The world could have been set afire but the Russians backed down. The winners always write the history and at this point I doubt that either Israel or Hamas care 2 cents about what the World Court or the UN have to say. Blockades are used by the stronger force to break the weaker force and the law in this specific case is mixed.

Think about it for a moment, you are proposing that two countries at war cannot violate the others borders? Oh if it only were so.

a reply to: whywhynot

That's what I thought. This could get VERY messy indeed.

a reply to: intrepid

if an ally decides to breach it?

Are you saying that Turkey is the ally of Palestine? Got any agreements to cite? It doesn't really matter anyway. Like all blockades thru history the stronger party prevails.

a reply to: whywhynot

Ally might be a strong word. How about benefactor?

a reply to: intrepid

How about fuse?

This is a smoke screen and PR stunt just like last time. Turkey plays to its population who are sympathetic to the Paletinians while at the same time it maintains military, intelligence and other ties behind the scenes. This is same sort of relashion ship Israel has with most of the Arab states who count on Israel as counter to Syria and Iraq (in the past) and Iran now. In public it is all about how bad they are in private it is cooperation. These states send token bits of aid and publicly condem Israel but, never really do anything to help the Palestinians. Look at all the weapons and aid the flowed to the Syrian rebels from the Arab states and Turkey. Why does no aid like this ever go to Palestine? Because Israel is much to valuable to them in the long run and all the have to do is keep it from being to obvious to their own people. I have said it before and I will say it again, spend some time in this region and you will come to start understanding how things really work, how things appear to work and how complex with no right or wrong answers most of the problems in the region are. So no matter what happens you will see no war between Turkey and Israel.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: buster2010

Well if that's Palestinian water this could get VERY messy.

Oh yes it could get very messy. Because Turkey doesn't have to honor the Israeli blockade and if Israel was smart they would let the supply ships through.

What kind of a circle jerk is this? False in every way.

Source

The disengagement plan states: "Israel will hold sole control of Gaza airspace and will continue to carry out military activity in the waters of the Gaza Strip." Therefore, Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967.

Israel controls the airspace and the coastal waters of Gaza.

a reply to: intrepid

en.wikipedia.org... this is wikis take on the blockaded area around Gaza

The blockade of the Gaza Strip refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Egypt and Israel from 2007 to present (July 2014). Israel said that it relatively eased the blockade for non-military goods in June 2010.[1]

so it would seem the blockade is still in effect for any military ships wanting to enter the area(the non military goods part)

Facing mounting international calls to ease or lift their blockade in response to the Gaza flotilla raid, Egypt and Israel lessened the restrictions starting in June 2010. Israel announced that it will allow all strictly civilian goods into Gaza while preventing certain weapons and what it designates as "dual-use" items from entering Gaza.

so it seems they allow some humanitarian stuff in with exceptions(the complete list can be found at the wiki)

On 20 June 2010, Israel's Security Cabinet approved a new system governing the blockade that would allow practically all non-military or dual-use items to enter the Gaza strip. According to a cabinet statement, Israel would "expand the transfer of construction materials designated for projects that have been approved by the Palestinian Authority, including schools, health institutions, water, sanitation and more – as well as (projects) that are under international supervision."[102] Despite the easing of the land blockade, Israel will continue to inspect all goods bound for Gaza by sea at the port of Ashdod.

so either way they will get to inspect the cargo at the port but it seems the Israeli navy is the ones in-charge of the area not the Palestinians or Hamas but they do have limited fishing rights in the area

We will monitor the situation to see if the promises are kept or not."[115] At the same time, Netanyahu affirmed that Israel would only consider exploring the removal of the Gaza blockade if peace ("quiet") is achieved in the area

so with events being as tense as they are i dont see them dropping the blockade any time in the next few months


ah edit to add this link does a better job of explaining it and has much better sources but it seems who controls the seas is contingent on if gaza is occupied or not (if not they are their own territorial waters if they are occupied they are considered Israeli waters )

www.otago.ac.nz... PDF on the previous raid but it seems to source alot of international laws and whatnot so i feel its worth the read

en.wikipedia.org...:Gaza_closure_December_2012.jpg that is the map of the seas you will have to zoom in to read the map key and find out who owns what specifically


the Palestinians of gaza have limited fishing rights out to 6 nautical miles where the isrelis claim the 6.5 after that for the standard "home waters" that extend off most nations so basically to get to the theoretical controlled waters of the Palestinians they have to sail through Israeli waters (see cease fire agreement of 2012) and even then that only seems to pertain to fishing not default control of the sea so to speak

its a pretty detailed map and the key explains everything ,also i dont think the Palestinians have any ports listed on the map but am unsure if they own anything larger then a fishing port etc


to the nato question im not sure it would apply especially if the nato nation in question (turkey in this case) got attacked sailing into other peoples waters ,and i could be wrong on this as nato members have helped out in non treaty designated areas but isnt NATO's area of responsibility mostly the north Atlantic,north America and Europe? as Gaza and Israel are in the middle east it in theory could not apply but im not an expert on nato laws and whatnot

and from my limited knowledge on modern blockades im pretty sure that attempting to break a naval blockade especially using armed forces of a foreign nation can and has been interpreted historically as an act of war and in general tends to not go over well

if idf navy wants to play it safe they could inspect at Ashod (how the treaty works currently) and if only aid allow it to pass to score some international good press,or they could attempt to disable with limited forces the naval vessels entering the blockade area perhaps by entangling the propellers of the flotilla Ala sea Sheppard status.launch lines into their propellers or place what would would ammount to sea mines but instead of explosives use nylon cable to foul the propellers and stop the ship from moving then tow them to port inspect the cargo then send them home.

but as turkey is not exactly a pushover and used to own all of that area during the ottoman times they might wanna go with the kid gloves option but they do have more then military options they can use

a reply to: TinfoilTP

Israel controls the airspace and the coastal waters of Gaza.

Let me dumb this down for you. The waters belong to Gaza not Israel just because Israel has a blockade on it doesn't mean everyone has to kiss their ass to get through. That and according to the UN Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal.
U.N. experts say Israel's blockade of Gaza illegal
The Blockade was at first ruled legal but then they ruled it was against international law and violated the Geneva Convention. So Turkey can ignore Israel and if Israel attempts to stop and board the ships Turkey has every right to sink the Israeli ships.

originally posted by: buster2010
That and according to the UN Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal.

Wrong again, as the Palmer report states,

Israel faces a real threat to its security from milita nt groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law

www.un.org...

That is the official report on the incident.

a reply to: buster2010

and how many times have the isrelis just flat out told the UN to pound sand? your link is from 2011 here is one from more recently when they again borded a ship to inspect its cargo and found a boat load of rockets

www.thenewamerican.com...

The Israeli Navy intercepted and boarded a cargo ship in international waters in the Red Sea on March 5, seizing a shipment that included Syrian-made M-302 rockets that the ship picked up in Iran. The ship was destined for Sudan, from which the rockets would presumably be moved by land across Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula to Gaza. The ship, KLOS-C, a general cargo vessel registered in Panama, was sailing off the coasts of Sudan and Eritrea, more than 1,000 miles south of Israel, when it was boarded, Israeli Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner told reporters.

so they seem to board any ship that could in theory be attempting to smuggle supplies past the blockade

and from everything i have read while construction of a port at gaza was approved i cant find any info on if it was ever built,let alone who would control it so i think they by default have to dock at Israeli ports thus the inspections are kind of inevitable at minimum unless they go to egypt and try to cross via land

a reply to: Ploutonas

Hello fellow ATS'ers

Wow, it has been a long time since I came around here but oh wells, it was for a good cause.

Since Im Turkish and know how to read Turkish I did a bit of research into this news.

Here's a link by one of the Turkish news websites:IHH to send flotilla to Gaza Edit: Link is Turkish

According to the information, the non profit organization IHH has SUBMITTED A REQUEST for the Turkish Navy to accompany them into Gaza to protect their upcoming flotilla. There has been no answer YET as to whether the Navy will accompany them or not.

FYI

originally posted by: ken10
Haha, lets see Israel attack a Turkish warship, That could result in NATO being called to war with Israel.

Here's hoping lol

Doubtful... Sending warshps with the flotilla would result in armed naval vessels from Turkey violating the territorial integrity of Israel. Isreal would have every right to not only sink the turkish ships, but the civilian ships in the Flotilla since they were under armed escort.

Regardless of peoples opinion on Gaza, Israel has internatioal law on its side. The floatilla can either dock at an Isreali port for off loading and inspection, at which point Isreal faces the burden of deliviering those supplies. The second option would be for the Floatilla to turn back.

Since Turkey has announced their intentions, Israel is covered by international law to intercept those vessels in international waters.

Turkey would actually be the aggressor towards Israel, meaning their NATO status is void. NATO is self defense only and does not apply when the NATO country starts hositilities.


ETA - Thanks nusnus for the update and translation about the request. Some of the points above would change if Turkey declines to assist the floatilla.

a reply to: Ploutonas

This could turn bad very quickly. Erdogan seems to be testing Israel with this move. I think Erdogan wants a fight. I hope I'm wrong.

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Israel controls the airspace and the coastal waters of Gaza.

Let me dumb this down for you. The waters belong to Gaza not Israel just because Israel has a blockade on it doesn't mean everyone has to kiss their ass to get through. That and according to the UN Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal.
U.N. experts say Israel's blockade of Gaza illegal
The Blockade was at first ruled legal but then they ruled it was against international law and violated the Geneva Convention. So Turkey can ignore Israel and if Israel attempts to stop and board the ships Turkey has every right to sink the Israeli ships.

Nope,
Israel retained control of all airspace and coastal waters off Gaza when they disengaged from Gaza removing all soldiers and settlements.
If they even want to fish they have to apply for a permit from Israel.

Turkey wouldn't sink a thing, they would be engaged in international waters and warned to turn back, if they didn't, Israel's air force would sink every ship before they ever saw the Gaza coast. It would all be legal and nobody would bat an eyelash.

a reply to: Ploutonas

u mean like ISIS?