MH-17 and the big WHY.

Hello ATS, it's been some while since I last posted. Being Dutch however, I feel more compelled than usual to visit and share with this forum. This off course regarding the MH17 crash.

Now, the question everyone seems to have on their mind is "WHO shot the plane?". That's fair enough (obviously), but the important question imo is "WHY would anyone shoot a (neutral) commercial jetliner?" The answer might be deceptively simple:

Because they believe it's not a commercial jetliner.

And this is where it gets interesting (aside from being shocking and horrible off course). Regardless of who ultimately shot down the plane, here's a 5-6 step plan their opponent could (I think easily) have executed:

1. Plan a super-important military plane to fly over a restricted fly zone.

2. "Leak" the scheduled flight to your opponent.

3. Do NOT fly said military plane over said area.

4. Don't inform the routine civilian flight, scheduled to fly over the area, about the above three steps.

5. Escort aforementiond civilian plane to make it look like a convoy. (Unconfirmed, as well as optional)

6. Have nature run it's course... (And make this as big a deal as possible to discredit your opponent even more.)

As morbid and far-fetched this may seem, to me this would be the most plausible reason to target a plane full of innocents.

Condolences to all the family and friends of the vicitims. I wish you strength and wisdom.

Peace

ps. Suggesting the bodies were dead long before take-off is very disrespectful so I urge people to stop doing so. I know for a fact that real innocent people died, because I know people that lost people.

a reply to: j-man

Somebody wanted AIDS research halted.

See, anyone can make things up.

I think it's still too early in the investigation to put it together .It was either a mistake , a set up ,or could have been a complete innocent failure of the aircraft .These machines can fail .Who knows ? If it's true that the airlines were a bit cheep on fuel ,then I can imagine them being a bit cheep on maintenance ,and may have failed to notice a crack in the frame . too soon to tell ....peace a reply to: j-man

a reply to: Astyanax

You could have presented any work of (known) fiction to support that shocking claim so I won't argue with you there. I assume you're saying I made my OP up, in which I also can't argue with you. Now what is your point?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

It IS still early, I'm merely saying that the blame (terrible word in these circumstances) might reach further than the guy who pulled the trigger.

Peace and a star for your caution

a reply to: j-man

That's my point.

originally posted by: j-man
a reply to: Astyanax

You could have presented any work of (known) fiction to support that shocking claim so I won't argue with you there. I assume you're saying I made my OP up, in which I also can't argue with you. Now what is your point?

Thing is, is that one can easily track commercial airline flights with a number of different apps these days. I would be surprised if those were not used by these paramilitary forces....

a reply to: Astyanax

Fantastic. May your comments be plentyful and have as much relevant content as your two previous ones in this thread.

In case anyone thinks I presented my OP as fact: I tried not to. I'll even quote myself:

"As morbid and far-fetched this may seem, to me this would be the most plausible reason to target a plane full of innocents"

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: j-man

Somebody wanted AIDS research halted.

See, anyone can make things up.

Was it you? Your avatar seems pretty scary!!!!

OP, I thank you for at least putting forward an idea. something worthy of consideration. its a lot better than making accusations as I've read around here on this of late.



And well, fly over a war zone, or be shot by lunatics.. either way, there is no answers here.

What evidence that is being released in the media seems to point to a likely misidentification. There's been a number of downed aircraft in the area recently. From Business Insider:

Armed with Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS), the separatists have been taking down Ukrainian military aircraft since the beginning of June. On June 13, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane that had been carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew members.

At least 10 other Ukrainian aircraft — all of them significantly lower-flying than a Boeing 777 — have been shot down since the rebels started using MANPADS according to a count kept by military aviation expert David Cenciotti, including five Mi-24 Hinds, two Mi-8 helicopters, one An-2, one An-30, and the Ukrainian transport plane.

Pro-Russian rebels claimed responsibility for shooting down two additional Ukrainian Su-25 fighters on Wednesday. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry reported that one of the jets was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile.

This Forbes article has a timeline events including a social media announcement of a downed A-26 by separatists and then a retraction of sorts, as well as excerpts from captured communications:

The third call at 5:42 from “Warrior” to “Kozitsin,” “Warrior” confirmed that it was a civilian plane, although the downed plane had earlier been called an AN-26 transport, that there was “a sea of bodies” of women and children and Indonesian university students, and was marked as an civilian Malaysian carrier. “Kozitsin” showed little concern and declared “the plane must have carried spies. We are in a war after all.”

Reports are saying that intercepted communications point to the Buk being smuggled across the border to Ukraine a few hours before and the AP had footage of one apparently high-tailing it back to Russia. What I'm wondering:

Why was Malaysia Airlines still flying this route?
Who was operating the Buk?

I think the probable answer to the first question is that they were still using the route to save a buck which is more or less what NBC News is reporting.

From what I remember from a couple of interviews I'd heard discussing the operation of the Buk missile system, it's a 4 person team and there's a fair amount of training involved. The truck mounted Buk apparently arrived hours earlier from Russia and then quickly exited.. back to Russia it seems. So were they Russian military?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
I think it's still too early in the investigation to put it together .It was either a mistake , a set up ,or could have been a complete innocent failure of the aircraft .These machines can fail .Who knows ? If it's true that the airlines were a bit cheep on fuel ,then I can imagine them being a bit cheep on maintenance ,and may have failed to notice a crack in the frame . too soon to tell ....peace a reply to: j-man

Agreed.

We need to avoid the rush to judgement.

Especially when it's clear there's a concerted effort to rush us to judgement.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
What evidence that is being released in the media seems to point to a likely misidentification.

The third call at 5:42 from “Warrior” to “Kozitsin,” “Warrior” confirmed that it was a civilian plane, although the downed plane had earlier been called an AN-26 transport, that there was “a sea of bodies” of women and children and Indonesian university students, and was marked as an civilian Malaysian carrier. “Kozitsin” showed little concern and declared “the plane must have carried spies. We are in a war after all.”

I think you kinda answered yourself there. Anyway, my OP was based on the question WHY anyone would this, because there is no obvious (- to me) gain for the purpotrating party. This is how I came up with the intentional misdirection.

Peace

So true ..I just finished reading this www.informationclearinghouse.info... The author brings out a good point that although the resistance in the east may have had one part of the system to be able to hit the target they didn't have the radar system because they had destroyed it earlier . That doesn't say that Russia couldn't have supplied that important info but like I said it's still early and some of the info we have been given as fact just hasn't been confirmed as of yet .The black box recorders will have a bunch of info to help connect some of the dots .. a reply to: Moresby

dbl post ...sorry

There are reports that a Ukraine aircraft was in the air at the same time (times newspaper). If the Ukraine had previous planes shot down then they may have used the commercial aircraft as "cover", thinking that with a commercial aircraft in the sky, they would not be fired at.

Pure speculation on my part.

a reply to: j-man
Wow, contrived or what!

How about, as I usually state, human c.ck-up followed by a.s-covering. So the rebels mistook it for military and now the guilt are covering their proverbial. Hence the behaviour at the crash site, the russian government statements (NB not actually accused Kiev of firing a missile - important point), the rebel leader and his conspiracy about decomposed bodies etc

While the world goes to hell in a handbasket.....the so called "world Leaders" sit on their hands a do nothing of value to stop it......
This crap is mostly contrived for emotional content....that's how they move the people.....
Those in power want this chaos ........its encouraged and created especially to keep the wool pulled over our eyes....
They use the ignorant and the gullible to do their dirty work....

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
a reply to: j-man
Wow, contrived or what!

How about, as I usually state, human c.ck-up followed by a.s-covering. So the rebels mistook it for military and now the guilt are covering their proverbial. Hence the behaviour at the crash site, the russian government statements (NB not actually accused Kiev of firing a missile - important point), the rebel leader and his conspiracy about decomposed bodies etc

It hasn't been verified what brought down MH-17. The missile explanation is just a claim. And the participation of Russian-backed rebels (possibly with the help of Russia) is a conspiracy theory currently being foisted on us by the US government.

At this time, it has no more validity than any other conspiracy theory coming from any other source.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
From what I remember from a couple of interviews I'd heard discussing the operation of the Buk missile system, it's a 4 person team and there's a fair amount of training involved. The truck mounted Buk apparently arrived hours earlier from Russia and then quickly exited.. back to Russia it seems. So were they Russian military?

Cossack Irregular forces:

For weeks, the central government in Kiev, along with its allies in the U.S. and Europe, have been trying to find solid evidence of Russian boots on the ground in eastern Ukraine. They need look no further than the men of the Wolves’ Hundred. In separate interviews with TIME over the past three weeks, four of its heavily armed fighters have admitted that they came from the southern Russian region of Kuban. They are part of the Cossack militias that have been in the service of Russian President Vladimir Putin for almost a decade, and they say they will not go home until they conquer Ukraine or die trying.

Their links to the Russian state are, however, just tenuous enough for Putin to deny having sent them, and these fighters in turn deny being paid, equipped or deployed by the Kremlin. They say they are volunteers driven by the ideals of their Cossack brotherhood – Russian imperialism, service to the sovereign and the heavenly mandate of the Russian Orthodox Church. In the past month, their campaign has revealed a new kind of Russian warfare, one waged through the use of militant nationalist groups acting as proxies. During the Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008 and the takeover of Crimea in March, armed Cossack militias served alongside the Russian military. But this appears to be the first time they have gone to fight as more than an auxiliary force.

www.phantomreport.com...

a reply to: yorkshirelad&others

"Contrived". I gues so ,but the information available makes it possible. Therefore it's just as valid as any of the claims as to who actually fired the missle (being not at all yet, to be sure). It's a real conspiracy and could have real benefactors. Deny ignorance, right?(too cliché?)
It might very well be a "c.ck-up" too. It'd be a horrible one and I hope the world would learn something."Wars kill lots of innocent people, also those from uninvolved countries. For example.
We'll have to see.

You're all ultimately right, though. I know nothing more than any of you do and I'm guessing. On this subject, almost everybody kinda is..

I'm done speculating and apologize to friends and relatives of people on board that fligt for being somewhat ignorant of the tragedy caused to them.

Peace