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posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 07:03 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur

I've already said I'm not going to entertain your dictionary abuse regarding how space is defined. Vacuum energy is not well understood, but I know I've explained what we know to you at least several times; the expansion of the universe is accelerating and vacuum energy is our guess for the reason. If you didn't get it the first five times there's no point in re-hashing it again.


I got it the first time.

My entire point is that it is not self consistent.

The reason people have doubts about the cannon of science, is because you are not even attempting to consider why and how what I am saying is a valid point, considering the inconsistencies with terms and concepts.

I am not arguing with you from my opinions or emotions.




posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

Hey, ImaFungi! Nice to see you back in this thread.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 07:16 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
I am not arguing with you from my opinions or emotions.
You certainly are arguing personal, and in my opinion, poorly founded personal opinions. You create a bunch of little "boxes" and then try to force things into those boxes, and when they don't fit, you say something is wrong. Yes something is wrong with the way you've constructed your boxes.

Galaxies are objects or at least collections of objects. When the distance between two galaxies increases by 10%, we say the space between them has increased. Your opinion seems to be that this is impossible. All the evidence shows it's not so this is why I say your opinion is poorly founded.

Light gets stretched out by this increase in distance, which causes cosmological redshift. There is data to support this which I just reposted in the last few pages, and all you're doing is essentially saying the data doesn't make philosophical sense to you. Science today is driven more by data and not so much by philosophy. If you had been born a few centuries ago before there was such a distinction your thinking would have fit in better, but of course that would put you in a time where we thought the sun revolved around the Earth.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur


Galaxies are objects or at least collections of objects. When the distance between two galaxies increases by 10%, we say the space between them has increased.


Answer this question then.

Does the word; Space; mean; only nothing. The word; Space.

Does; Space = only nothing.

If yes.

Space = Cannot expand.

If no.

Space = What is *it* that is expanding?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: Nochzwei

Dark matter being electrons, in the time domain?

Why do you think its dark matter? What is the reasoning.
When you draw zero point energy from the time domain, it comes in the form of electrons, its measurable as current but the voltage is at right angles to the voltage in our 3 spatial dimensions. the time domain has is own 3 spatial dimensions and these 3 intersect our 3 at right angles. So our reality is really 6 dimensional space



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 08:15 PM
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a reply to: Nochzwei

Time is only movement.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Arbitrageur


Galaxies are objects or at least collections of objects. When the distance between two galaxies increases by 10%, we say the space between them has increased.


Answer this question then.

Does the word; Space; mean; only nothing. The word; Space.

Does; Space = only nothing.

If yes.

Space = Cannot expand.

If no.

Space = What is *it* that is expanding?




Are you referring to space-time or space?

Space is at its most basic the distance between two points. Your arguments were first introduced by Aristotle on his lectures on nature. He defined space very similar to you. Later isaac Newton refined it saying space was absolute—in the sense that it existed permanently and independently of whether there was any matter in the space.

Now along came Einstein in general theory of relativity...space...has no separate existence" and "there is no such thing as empty space, i., e., a space without field. Space-time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a structural quality of the field. In other words it is a set of locations a field exists. What we see as expansion of the fields is the expansion of space.

So which space are we talking about and in what context. Philosophical arguments are useless eh arm discussing space. Because we can only use space relative to something else.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

Galaxies are objects or at least collections of objects. When the distance between two galaxies increases by 10%, we say the space between them has increased.


Answer this question then.

Does the word; Space; mean; only nothing. The word; Space.

Does; Space = only nothing.

If yes.

Space = Cannot expand.

If no.

Space = What is *it* that is expanding?
You don't get high marks for either reading comprehension, memory, or both. But I'll hold your hand for one post and repeat the dictionary definition.


originally posted by: ImaFungi
Dimensions are not a quality of space.



originally posted by: Arbitrageur
www.merriam-webster.com...


Space: a limited extent in one, two, or three dimensions : distance, area, volume


Here's an example. Take an empty room, 3m by 3m by 3m, so it has a total volume of 27 cubic meters.
Now knock out one wall, and modify the room so it's 3m by 4m by 3m. Now the volume is 36 cubic meters.

The room went from having 27 cubic meters of space to 36 cubic meters of space.
It can be empty, but it doesn't have to be. It can be completely filled with air, and you can even put furniture in it, then it's not empty space but it's still space.

The space between galaxies can be nearly empty.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:31 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Arbitrageur


Galaxies are objects or at least collections of objects. When the distance between two galaxies increases by 10%, we say the space between them has increased.


Answer this question then.

Does the word; Space; mean; only nothing. The word; Space.

Does; Space = only nothing.

If yes.

Space = Cannot expand.

If no.

Space = What is *it* that is expanding?




Are you referring to space-time or space?

Space is at its most basic the distance between two points. Your arguments were first introduced by Aristotle on his lectures on nature. He defined space very similar to you. Later isaac Newton refined it saying space was absolute—in the sense that it existed permanently and independently of whether there was any matter in the space.

Now along came Einstein in general theory of relativity...space...has no separate existence" and "there is no such thing as empty space, i., e., a space without field. Space-time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a structural quality of the field. In other words it is a set of locations a field exists. What we see as expansion of the fields is the expansion of space.

So which space are we talking about and in what context. Philosophical arguments are useless eh arm discussing space. Because we can only use space relative to something else.



Einstein's comments about space were not about 'reality'; they are not about what exists for real.

His comments are about a system he developed to compare the movements of somethings.

I dont think Einstein believed that inbetween galaxies were 'fields' (field lines).



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur


Here's an example. Take an empty room, 3m by 3m by 3m, so it has a total volume of 27 cubic meters.
Now knock out one wall, and modify the room so it's 3m by 4m by 3m. Now the volume is 36 cubic meters.

The room went from having 27 cubic meters of space to 36 cubic meters of space.


Do you realize, that the absolute nature of space, did not change. Only the physical something of walls changed?

Space did not expand. The walls expanded.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

Now stop being intellectually dishonest, and answer these questions right here I am asking.

Read these words. And answer the question.

Does the word space mean; Only Nothing.

Yes or no?

Answer this question;

Can, only nothing, expand?

To repeat.

Does the word space mean: Only Nothing?

Can: Only nothing, expand?

If space = Not only nothing.

What is the "IT", that Space, Is.

If space is not only nothing.

What is it?

Answer these questions.




edit on 9-9-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

Why cant you answer this question, yes or no.

Does the word SPACE = ONLY NOTHING.

Yes or no?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Why cant you answer this question, yes or no.

Does the word SPACE = ONLY NOTHING.

Yes or no?


Vector space:
No space is not an object. It is not a thing..... It is
vector space which is a mathematical structure formed by a collection of elements called vectors, which may be added together and multiplied ("scaled") by numbers, called scalars in this context.

Your trying to define space not realizing it is a property. Until you understand math and how vectors work trying to explain space expansion to you will be impossible......

Learn about vector fields then we can discuss the expansion of space. You have to learn to walk before you can run.
edit on 9/9/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 09:54 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

There are many different types of space in human terms. I am attempting to speak about reality.

I think in reality, distance exists.

I think in reality, area of nothing exists.

Do you agree?

I thought the word space, could be used to equal, area of nothing.

If there is area of nothing, beyond the universe (or multiverse), what would be a good word to call that area of nothing?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 10:11 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: dragonridr

There are many different types of space in human terms. I am attempting to speak about reality.

I think in reality, distance exists.

I think in reality, area of nothing exists.

Do you agree?

I thought the word space, could be used to equal, area of nothing.

If there is area of nothing, beyond the universe (or multiverse), what would be a good word to call that area of nothing?


Vectors is possible locations. So it is a measurement of space. As far as what's outside the universe nothing there is no outside of the universe. The universe is infinite you can't have something outside of infinite. What your not getting is would it surprise you if I said when the universe was infinitely small and the matter distribution is the same as it is now . What changed is the amount of vectors between the matter. It didn't just happen from a single point it happened from all points at once. There id no center of the universe.

When space time expanded increasing the vectors each section of space created more vectors. Very similar to the room example used by Arb earlier. But instead of the wall being moved. Every point creates a new point and those points create others. That is what's called metric expansion of space.

Do not think of space as anything other then possibilities. These possibilities increase as time goes on.
edit on 9/9/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 10:29 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Take a piece of white paper.

Take a black marker.

In the middle of the piece of paper draw a circle and color it in.

Draw an arrow pointing to the circle, and at the end of the arrow which is not pointing to the circle write "The totality of quantity that exists cannot be infinite; this circle represents the fact that the totality of quantity that exists must be finite.

I would say, beyond the black circle (the rest of the paper) is nothing, but that it is still real area.

I do not see any reason why it would be theoretically impossible, for a part of the quantity which exists, to break off or shoot off into the area of nothingness, beyond the circle.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 10:51 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
The room went from having 27 cubic meters of space to 36 cubic meters of space.
It can be empty, but it doesn't have to be. It can be completely filled with air, and you can even put furniture in it, then it's not empty space but it's still space.



originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Why cant you answer this question, yes or no.

Does the word SPACE = ONLY NOTHING.

Yes or no?
If you can't read and comprehend what I've written and what the dictionary says, I don't see the point in continuing. Air is not nothing, but I expected you would already know that. If space was nothing, it wouldn't be able to contain the 36 cubic meters of air, or the furniture.
edit on 201599 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 10:59 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
If you can't read and comprehend what I've written and what the dictionary says, I don't see the point in continuing. Air is not nothing, but I expected you would already know that.


In your example, the only thing that really changes is the walls (walls are matter).



If space was nothing, it wouldn't be able to contain the 36 cubic meters of air, or the furniture.


You say; If space was nothing, implying; Space = not nothing.

If, space = not nothing. What is the 'not nothing' space = ?

Is space something or nothing?

You say, space is something.

What is the something space is?

Describe what the something is. (as you can describe the something an electron is, an apple is, the sun is, a proton is) Describe the something space is?

One description at a time, I will go through your answers and discuss them.



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 11:03 PM
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what is a good reference that would tell me the shapes of the various atomic nuclei including perhaps isotopes when applicable?



posted on Sep, 9 2015 @ 11:06 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
In your example, the only thing that really changes is the walls (walls are matter).
And when there's more space between galaxies, the two galaxies are somewhat like the walls. The space is what's between the walls or the galaxies.

This whole discussion about "nothing" is an example you you creating a "box" and trying to stuff something into the box that doesn't belong there. The definition of space doesn't say anything about "nothing" so you're stuck in a rut because of your "nothing" box.

Proof space is not nothing: If there was nothing between the walls or between the galaxies they would be touching. Space is what prevents that, and puts some distance between them.

When the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies collide, it will be because the space between them has diminished from 2 million light years to nothing. Then you can say the space between the Milky Way and Andromeda is nothing, but you've got to wait a few billion years for that to happen.

edit on 201599 by Arbitrageur because: clarification




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