It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Iran spreads propaganda

page: 1
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:17 AM
link   
Hi there, now that I have your attention

any way Persians/Iranians are claiming the following points can anybody please verify them for me? or otherwise ofcourse


thanks a lot.







1. Twelve thousand years ago, they invented irigated farming.

2. They invented writing.

3. They figured out how to tell time.

4. They founded modern mathematics.

5. In the Code of Hammurabi, they invented the first legal system that protects the weak, the
widow and the orphan.

6. Five thousand years ago, they had philosophers who attempted to list every known thing in the
world.

7. They were using Pythagoras's theorm, 1'700 years before Pythagoras.

8. They invented artifical building materials, some kind of pre-fab-crete stuff used to construct
high-rise towers.

9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.

10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.

11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they
still do.

12. Because they were great horse breeders, they invented the cavalry in war, Knights of the King
originate in Ancient Persia, and they invented other things like the Game of Polo (Cho-gun).

13. They invented the postal system.

14. Emperor Darius the conqueror invented and built the Suez Canal, giving access to the Persian
Navy to the Mediterranean Sea (In fact that is precisely how the Moslem armies went as far as
Spain some thousand years later).

15. The Iranian Museum in Tehran contains some of the most outstanding stone, metal and clay
sculptures and inscriptions created in the history of the world. Some of them are more than
7'000 years old. If a bomb ever hits this place, art lovers around the world will go into
mourning.

16. The first school for astronomers was established by Iranians. This is how the "wise-men" got to
be so wise. They knew how to follow the stars.

17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians found universities that exported teachers throughout
the civilized world to teach medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry
inter alia...

18. Abraham, the father of Israel, was from Persia.

19. Abraham, the father and "model" of Christian faith, was from Persia.

20. Abraham, the father of Islam, was from Persia.

21. Some 60 years ago the name of Persia was changed to Iran by the then king Reza Shah Pahlavi.




Hey please don't just post answers based on emotion or stereotype, this is an all conspiracy site afterall.




posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:27 AM
link   
I hate to hijack your thread but I was about to start a thread myself on the history of Iraq.

If anyone knows a lot about the history of that region, can you take a look at this video and tell me how much of what is claimed is true?

CBS: 2003 April 15, Iraq's biblical history



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:39 AM
link   
Yeah please, take some time to actually understand history. Well history of your "Enemy Maybe" myabe it will help you to find the true Enemy?




posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan
Yeah please, take some time to actually understand history. Well history of your "Enemy Maybe" myabe it will help you to find the true Enemy?



I've seen the exact same list attributed to Iraq and the video clip I posted mentions that Abraham is from iraq.

I think this information covers the entire region of Iran and Iraq.

www.whatreallyhappened.com...



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:56 AM
link   
How big is the video?

by the way parts of Iraq up to I think tigris river used to be persia. It used to be called -the region between the two rivers- and it used to be a big persian capital in the -pre Arabic invasion- times.


take care.



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 05:59 AM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan
How big is the video?

by the way parts of Iraq up to I think tigris river used to be persia. It used to be called -the region between the two rivers- and it used to be a big persian capital in the -pre Arabic invasion- times.


take care.


19.4MB and it's only 4 minutes long.
If you don't have broadband, don't bother.
It's not an in-depth look at Iraq's history or anything like that.



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 08:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan
Hi there, now that I have your attention

any way Persians/Iranians are claiming the following points can anybody please verify them for me? or otherwise ofcourse

I'll give some of these a shot, especially since byrd hasn't shown up yet


1. Twelve thousand years ago, they invented irigated farming.

The oldest evidence that I am aware of in regards to farming is somethign like the spread of pottery from the 'jomon' culture in japan (or at least thats where it first started anyways). Pottery is thought to precede agriculture. As far as irrigation, I have only ever heard of the sumerians being the ones to have first started doing this.


2. They invented writing.

Again, I'd have to say that this is something better attributed to the sumerians.


3. They figured out how to tell time.

Thats just plain stupid. Is there some sort of elaboration on this?


4. They founded modern mathematics.

The story is that indians invented the concept of zero, and geometry and the like and most of modern mathematics as far as I know were invented by the greeks, or at least formalized by them. In particular the pythagorean number cult. Certainly, they received some info from the egyptians and what not, but -modern- mathematics? Like algebra and the like? I'd say thats an invention of the greeks, not the 'persians' or any iranian people.


5. In the Code of Hammurabi, they invented the first legal system that protects the weak, the widow and the orphan.

The Code of Hammurabi was a quantum leap in the legal arena, because it said that the punishment should fit the crime. A theif should be stolen from an only a murderer should be murdered and the like. Hammurabi was not a persian or any sort of iranian so I don't see how they can claim this.


6. Five thousand years ago, they had philosophers who attempted to list every known thing in the world.

Seems a rather silly task, maybe they did it. 'real' philosophy starts with the greeks however, in Ionia on the west coast of Turkey.


7. They were using Pythagoras's theorm, 1'700 years before Pythagoras.

Never heard of this. What proof do they offer?


8. They invented artifical building materials, some kind of pre-fab-crete stuff used to construct high-rise towers.

Absolutely not. Concrete is a roman invention and perfection.


9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.

All genetic evidence shows that humanity originated in africa -or-, literally, nowhere in particular. The closest thing to anything like this claim above is that there was another genetic study that showed that everyone -now- has genes from some man from central asia, which wouldn't technically include iran and I don't think that these are 'iranian' genes anyway.


10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.

The oldest cities are from africa and the levant.


11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they still do.

Are you talking about the iranians or the irish? Or are the iranians actually an irish people, because this seems like a typical irish boast. Its a boast and nothing more. In the 'prechristian/muslim' period I would say that iran is not a great source of literacy, and in the islamic period I would bet that there was lots of good stuff that came out of there, but the best? No. And the Gathas are probably one of the 'greatest' things to come out of pre-modern iranian literature. But they're not the first thing that anyone thinks of when they think of poetry and epics.


12. Because they were great horse breeders,

Horse breeding is someting that started on the asiatic steppes, not iran.

they invented the cavalry in war,

Patently untrue. There were warring horseriding cavalry throughout asia long before they were in iran.


Knights of the King originate in Ancient Persia,

Knights originated in europe (technically anyways. iranian/persian/parthian 'Cataphracts' aren't technically knights'). Armoured Heavy Cavalry is a Parthian invention, so they can take credit for that sure.


and they invented other things like the Game of Polo (Cho-gun).

I couldn't even guess. SUpposedly chess is an iranian thing too.


13. They invented the postal system.

With stamps and everything eh?


14. Emperor Darius the conqueror invented and built the Suez Canal,

Ok, this is freeking stupid


giving access to the Persian Navy to the Mediterranean Sea

The persians, in the wars against the greeks, had the phonecians and other semites in the levant build ships for them and launch them from there.


(In fact that is precisely how the Moslem armies went as far as Spain some thousand years later).

Absurd, even if darius built the suez, it'd've been destroyed long before islam existed, let alone invaded north africa and then spain. There was no muslim army that left from persia to conquer spain, and one certainly doesn't need to suez to go from morroco to spain.


15. The Iranian Museum in Tehran contains some of the most outstanding stone, metal and clay sculptures and inscriptions created in the history of the world. Some of them are more than 7'000 years old. If a bomb ever hits this place, art lovers around the world will go into mourning.

Except that no one can see them for fear of their lives, but I'd bet that any museum in Iran has some outstanding stuff.


16. The first school for astronomers was established by Iranians. This is how the "wise-men" got to be so wise. They knew how to follow the stars.

Astronomy/astrology is something that, again, the sumerians were really doing, and infact as stonehenge and other structures demonstrate, its something that every culture does and every culture does well.


17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians found universities

I am under the impression that the first actual 'university' in anything like the modern sense was a muslim invention and not in iran/persia. Iran certainly had large schools where educated people worked and were taught, but this is not particualrly unusual. Infact the instances that I am thinking of were places where greek knowledge was used.


18. Abraham, the father of Israel, was from Persia.

The only source that even claims he existed notes he was from mesopotamia, not persia


21. Some 60 years ago the name of Persia was changed to Iran by the then king Reza Shah Pahlavi.

The shah wasn't ruling anythign like either of the old persias. The one alexander destroyed stretched from the edges of pakistan to the edges of europe and included egypt. After that, the new persian kingdom arose out of the Parthian empire, but it was more like modern iran and iraq and some territory around it together. Regardless the shah (a title thought to have originated with the title 'caesar', just like 'tsar' and 'kaiser') ran a country that was often called persia, and that contains a persian people (amoung others) but not 'the' persia.



Hope that that has either been helpful or will stimulate more discussion on the topic.



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 09:48 AM
link   
To the best of my knowledge


7. They were using Pythagoras's theorm, 1'700 years before Pythagoras.
dunno but there has always been a lot of emphasis on the Persians and Arabs advancing mathematically/scientifically loads more than the Europe in the middle ages/dark ages.


9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.
The Aryan race originates from North Iran/India that is very much a fact, don't forget that Persia was much larger than Iran is now, because of the Persian empire


10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.

IraQ is known as the birthplace of civilisation


11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they still do.

Bit of an opinion but a commonly accepted one. Jellaludin Rumi was a bit of a don in the poetry



17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians found universities that exported teachers throughout
the civilized world to teach medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry
yeh probably IraQ had some of the best universities also in the world before the gulf war.

Is this post supposed to be a reassurance or something that Iran has always been backward and so its ok to bomb them?



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 10:14 AM
link   
Well the reason why Iran and Iraq is mixed is due to not borders back in the time, the entire region was considered the cradle of civilization or from where civilization started.

I read a lot about the Sumerians they were a very advance civilization back in the days. Too bad that been in that area we may never unearth more of their secrets if its any after all the devastation in the area.

I Remember that Saddam was doing a restoration on the Babylonian gardens, if some of you remembers he thought himself to be a descendant of one of the kings.



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 10:56 AM
link   
I think Marg hit the nail on the head...

A long time ago, the areas considered to be "Persia", "Sumeria", etc. are mostly debateable at best...hence any nation in the vicinity will claim such feats and luminaries as "theirs"...

While civilization is said to have come from the area, our origins as a species seem to originate in Africa so far....

As far as I know, Hammuarabi's Code is at least the earliest known recorded system of laws, but again, I believe that he is considered to have been Sumerian, same with cunioform (sp?) (earliest writing).

I'd wait for Byrd before going much further, as this is her area of expertise...



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 11:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by sal88
The Aryan race originates from North Iran/India that is very much a fact,

The 'aryan race' does not exist. There were some people in northindia/pakistan who called themselves aryans of course. And 'Iran' is a 'breakdown' of the word 'Aryan'.


marg
I Remember that Saddam was doing a restoration on the Babylonian gardens

Apparently he was trying to do something like what hitler was doing in creating the super german pan european riechs capital city called "Germania". Hussein wasn't so much 'restoring' the old city of Babylon as he was trying to establish his eternal legacy and the inevitablness of his reign.

...hence any nation in the vicinity will claim such feats and luminaries as "theirs"...

Yes but persian speaking central asians thousands of miles away from sumeria and sharing practically nothing with them really don't have much of a claim for including the semitic dravidian speaking sumerians in their 'cultural sphere'. Indeed, it'd be like the US claiming that the Iroqouis Confedereacy was an antecedent of the constitution and that their feats of the iroqouis are the feats of the US government. Also, iran has no more claim to what went on in Sumeria than syria, israel, turkey, egypt, or hell greece and india for that matter.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:09 AM
link   
O.K. first a map of old persia:







and maybe follow these two links:





ctesiphon capital of Old persia




more info about the old empire


and now a map of Sumeria:









O.K notice any lapping of areas? Most of the part that you call Sumeria shared its space with persia. So I suppose both of them can claim the title to the inventions. So at the old times these people used to be very similar and share a lot so I think all of their achievemets can be attributed to all of them.


Thanks for all the replys, anyways it is always good to get some non persian point of view about these things as it is very easy for one to boost their own ego so having your ideas challenged is very positive I think.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan
Thanks for all the replys, anyways it is always good to get some non persian point of view about these things as it is very easy for one to boost their own ego so having your ideas challenged is very positive I think.


I stil believe Iran has a great history.
I'd like to visit there someday.

I know you have a slow connection but you may want to check out an old video I posted in this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's from 1954.
If your connection is as bad as you say, you may want to use a download manager like XI Net transport to download a few megabytes per day.

If you have any similar links yourself, I'd be interested in seeing them.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 08:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan

ctesiphon capital of Old persia

The capital of the persian that alexander annihilated was Persepolis nad it was deep in Iran. This is the capital of the Parthian empire, not the persians.


O.K notice any lapping of areas? Most of the part that you call Sumeria shared its space with persia. So I suppose both of them can claim the title to the inventions.

Thats rather unfair to the people that actually invented them don't you think? The Sumerians are not a persina people and didn't speak a persian language and generally have nothing to do with persia outside of persia once having extended its empire that. Might as well claim that the persians invented judaism because at one point they held the levant. Or that persians built the pyramids, because persia once held egypt. Heck, for that matter, all of modern science and philosophy is a persian invention, since it came about in Ionia, which was held by the persians. Occupied by greeks, but whats the difference right?


So at the old times these people used to be very similar and share a lot so I think all of their achievemets can be attributed to all of them.

Thats the thing, they weren't very similar and didn't share anything at all. The city dwelling urbane sumerians had little in common with the wild nomadic unsettled ancestors of the persians running around central asia at the same time.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 02:32 AM
link   
are they just like aliens that don't exist? or Germans are not real?


Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by zurvan

ctesiphon capital of Old persia

The capital of the persian that alexander annihilated was Persepolis nad it was deep in Iran. This is the capital of the Parthian empire, not the persians.


O.K notice any lapping of areas? Most of the part that you call Sumeria shared its space with persia. So I suppose both of them can claim the title to the inventions.

Thats rather unfair to the people that actually invented them don't you think? The Sumerians are not a persina people and didn't speak a persian language and generally have nothing to do with persia outside of persia once having extended its empire that. Might as well claim that the persians invented judaism because at one point they held the levant. Or that persians built the pyramids, because persia once held egypt. Heck, for that matter, all of modern science and philosophy is a persian invention, since it came about in Ionia, which was held by the persians. Occupied by greeks, but whats the difference right?



Yup I think with cuniform and maybe law you could be right . even then Persians would be considered fast adopters!


So at the old times these people used to be very similar and share a lot so I think all of their achievemets can be attributed to all of them.

Thats the thing, they weren't very similar and didn't share anything at all. The city dwelling urbane sumerians had little in common with the wild nomadic unsettled ancestors of the persians running around central asia at the same time.





Ctesiphon

The historically important site of Ctesiphon, about 30 km to the south east of Baghdad, was built by the Parthian Persians on the opposite (east) side of the Tigris from Seleucia in the middle of the 2nd century BC. The two cities were joined by a bridge, and the Arabs coupled them together, calling them jointly Al-Mada'en (the Cities).

Amidst its extensive ruin stands the best-known antique site in Iraq after Ur and Babylon: the fabulous and colossal arch of the great banqueting-hall of the great palace of Sapor, the Shah's luxurious capital, which was built in the middle of the 3rd century of our era.

The great banqueting-hall of Sapor's great palace

Experts believe that it is the widest and highest single-span vault built of baked bricks in the World: its construction at that time must have been a miracle of architectural planning.

A descendant of ancient Mesopotamian structures in style, it embodied a skilful development of temples and palaces of the 3rd millennium BC, when the front part of great buildings would consist of large halls topped by high arches - as seen clearly at the entrances of Assyrian cities.

When the Tigris flooded in 1987 and destroyed almost all of the rest of the building, the Arch of Ctesiphon survived.




also you sctesiphon


parthian persians were virtually the same. They come from one tribe!



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 02:51 AM
link   
What is absolutely certain, is that formalized mathematics and astronomy had their orginins in Persia. It is not for nothing that Al-Khawarizmi (origin of the word 'Algorithm) is known as the 'inventor' of mathematics. Also, modern medicine was invented in Persia (Ibn Sina)

Moreover, Zoroastrianism (Persian Religion) was the first monotheistic religion in the world, which inspired many basic beliefs in judaism and christianity.

Also, the first declaration of human rights is dated back to the achimenidean empire.

The Sumerians are probably the 'craddle of civilization', and the persians offered many modern developements from there that we count today as foundation of our culture...



[edit on 8-12-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 09:21 AM
link   
Some good search topics to find out more information about first civiliations would be:

Ancient Sumeria
Mesopotamia
"The first civilization"
"The first written language"

Use the quotes for exact phrase results.

Personally, If I had to rebut the claims of Iraqi/Persian natives trying to masquerade as enlightened individuals based on their ancestors, I would start with a few general facts such as the following issues and analogies:

1. If your parent is successful, it doesn't necessarily make the child successful just like the successes of the ancestors doesn't make their progeny successful.

2. The people with the largest egos can be the most ignorent people. When we stop striving to better ourselves based on the history of those who came before us, we become lazy, careless, and thoughtless.

3. No matter what ancestors have done, it doesn't give current citizens the right to walk over others.

4. Life is not so much a competition as a growing experience.

5. And here I throw a bit of immaturity into my post by saying that at least since the days of Christ, people from that region have been heathenistic brutes. They do the most unscrupulous things out of immediate responses to situations and fear of others, failure, and competition. They behead individuals based on some stupid belief that the punishment fits the crime when it should be enough to simply remove that person from existence! So as far as I'm concerned, I have a pure hatred for irresponsible, brutal, completely inconsiderate, closed-minded people, and I couldn't give a rat's a#% if they created the earth itself. Yet I will take the time (as a partially considerate party) to state that any person of Middle Eastern decent living happily in America and without animosity toward Americans or any other people of a country for that matter should deem themselves exempt from the above post. Furthermore, I believe we should wage wars against issues more than people.

Strianissa



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 10:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by zurvan
Aryans dont exist?[...]are they just like aliens that don't exist? or Germans are not real?

There is considerable debate as to who and what the 'aryans' actually are. The modern name 'iran' is supposed to be a 'corruption' (linguistically, not with any ethical connotations) of 'aryan'. To some, particularly the ancient peoples claiming to be aryan, the word is merely denoting that one is a wiseman or noble or somesuch, not a nationality or ethnicity. Linked to this is the wider issue of whether or not india suffered an aryan invasion and displacement. The 'other' aryan is the theosophical/'new agey' idea that the aryans are an ancient masterful race of near super-people, and that the germans and 'goths' or whatever are the 'least intermixed' and 'purist' aryans.


Yup I think with cuniform and maybe law you could be right . even then Persians would be considered fast adopters!

Sure, usually people adapt pretty quickly to the dominate ruling group. Immigrants from south america to the US learn english, and the like.

The historically important site of Ctesiphon, [...]

Yes, i read the link and its quite interesting.

parthian persians were virtually the same. They come from one tribe!

Interesting, what information do you have that supports this? The origins of the parthians is not particularly well established. I'm sure that there is some evidence to suggest a relationship, but the Parthian Empire itself overtook the old Persian Empire, and was itself overtaken by the new muslim persian empire.

parthia.com
The origins of the Parthian people are clouded. Strabo (xi, 515) says the first Arsaces was a Scythian man with the semi-nomadic Parni tribe, a part of the Dahi, nomads who lived along the Ochus (Tejend or lower Oxus) River, who invaded and conquered Parthia. Strabo also mentions those who claim Arsaces was a Bactrian who escaped from Diodotus after a failed revolt. Justin (xli, 1) agrees Arsaces was a Scythian. Frye's analysis is that we can believe the Parni origins, but it was more likely a migration than an invasion that brought them, and Arsaces, to Parthia. (History, p. 207) These people would not be known as Parthians until they moved southward into the Persian province of Parthava sometime before 250 B.C. Achaemenian and early Greek references to "Parthians" refer to earlier inhabitants of Parthava, not the Arsacid Parthians. (Debevoise, Political History, 2; W. M. Montgomery, Early Empires).



Mokuhadzushi
Also, modern medicine was invented in Persia

In iran in the early period before the muslim expansion there were numerous 'universities' where ancient greek philosophy and medecine were taught. I am unsure as to what the claim that modern medecine being invented in persia is supposed to mean. If they invented it, then why wasn't it practiced? Do you mean to say that persian medecine was more advanced than european?


The Sumerians are probably the 'craddle of civilization', and the persians

The Sumerians were not a persian people, didn't speak a persian language, didn't write a persian script, and have absolutely nothing to do with anything 'persian', iranian, or anything. The sumerians were probably an 'elamo-dravidic' people, that is to say that they were their own people who did their own thing. Modern persians would be doing a disservice to their own history by pretending to include the achievements of the sumerians in it. Again, they might as equally logically include the egyptian pyramids and greel philosophy in that list.


strianissa
Personally, If I had to rebut the claims of Iraqi/Persian natives trying to masquerade as enlightened individuals

I don't think that there is a claim being made that 'persians' are superior to anyone here, merely that the 'persian peoples' have accomplished some great things in this history and are rightly proud of it. Similiarly modern greeks and italians can be proud of 'classical civilization', even if they are ignorant of any of the specifics.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 03:31 PM
link   
I stand corrected. Since I didn't see the context of the original information, I have to admit to being jaded by my recent ideals based on my reflection of the brutality of their punishments and oppressions of women.

However, one point that I did forget to mention is that if the Ancient Sumerians were the original tribe of mankind (not sure about this one) or at least western civilization, then all of the descendents, which inevitably includes a huge portion of Americans can be proud of Our ancestors...just a thought.

Strianissa



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 04:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by Strianissa
I stand corrected. Since I didn't see the context of the original information, I have to admit to being jaded by my recent ideals based on my reflection of the brutality of their punishments and oppressions of women.

However, one point that I did forget to mention is that if the Ancient Sumerian's were the original tribe of mankind (not sure about this one) or at least western civilization, then all of the descendents, which inevitably includes a huge portion of Americans can be proud of Our ancestors...just a thought.

Strianissa


OK you make some valid points, except what I am trying to convey to you is that Islam/Arabs have nothing to do with Persians. The stereotype known of middle east today is of Moslem's culture. Not only they have nothing to do with Persians but they actually were considered barbarian enemies who lived in the desert. Persian Army did not even consider going into Arabia as they thought nothing of it. So my point, not all the cultures in MidEast are Muslim and practice savage deeds as you mentioned. Persians despised it.

read this link it is the letter that the Persian king wrote to Arab/Muslim leader just before they invaded Persia/Iran 1400 yrs ago!


letter to Moslem Invaders 1400yrs ago!

off course this is a translation. Some could even debate it is not real, but I tell you if nothing it is Persian feeling toward Islam, and it stands even today!

Note Iran currently lives under Muslim/Arabic Slavery!



OK here a couple of links as well for Nygdan on Parthians vs Persians:

www.parthia.com...

www.mage.com...

campus.northpark.edu...

And by the way we both spoke the same language.

and thank you for info on Sumerians you are right they have nothing to do with persians that was my mistake


[edit on 9-12-2004 by zurvan]



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join