Would Jesus have hated on gays?

a reply to: windword

Way to put words in my mouth and NOT read what I said.

God knows. I did not say that. I said that Jesus did not spend much time with the irredeemable, but since there is at least one account of him spending time healing a gay man, then clearly he did spend time with gays. So gays must not be irredeemable.

Pay attention.

So, who put words in who's mouth in that post?

a reply to: ketsuko

I did not say that.

Really? Because I quoted you exactly as you posted it!

You don't see Jesus spending much time trying to redeem the demons he exorcized or trying to redeem the irredeemable.

If homosexuality was what a person was, their very being, then do you think Christ would have had anything to do with gays? They would have, by nature, been unclean and beyond redemption.

Here's your chance to tell us what you really said!

a reply to: windword

Yes, and you are cherry picking parts of my post.

The long and short of it is: the act of homosexuality is a sin just like every other sexual sin. I have been very clear on this.

You cannot be born a sin. So you cannot be born gay or an adulterer or a fornicator or a rapist (or any other type of sin).

Jesus told us to love the sinner and hate the sin which is irredeemable. You cannot redeem sin, but you can redeem a sinner. Every example throughout the Bible is Jesus ministering to sinners. He did not try to redeem the irredeemable, nor did He excuse the sins of the sinful. If gays were "born that way," they would be irredeemable, born a sin. As Jesus ministered to gays, they are not born that way because He did not make mistakes, did not minister to the irredeemable, or excuse the sins of the sinful.

Therefore, gays are redeemable sinners just like all the rest of us, and homosexuality is a sin that can be repented of and forgiven.

But I understand that you constantly seek to paint it in the very worst light possible even when it means putting lies into the mouths of your opponents by intentionally twisting their words and intent. I know you, windword.

The I know.

a reply to: ketsuko

But I understand that you constantly seek to paint it in the very worst light possible even when it means putting lies into the mouths of your opponents by intentionally twisting their words and intent.

Your words speak for themselves. Your hatred comes through loud and clear. No one has to twist your words for that to be seen.

You cannot be born a sin. So you cannot be born gay or an adulterer or a fornicator or a rapist (or any other type of sin).

Sexual sins are human constructs of control. Sexual rules do not come from god. God doesn't make rules about a rapist paying 50 sheckles to the girl's father and then force that girl to marry her rapist. God doesn't make laws that allow a town to stone a couple of star crossed teenage lovers, because the girl was to be sold to a 40 year old as his 5th wife.

Jesus told us to love the sinner and hate the sin which is irredeemable. You cannot redeem sin, but you can redeem a sinner.

Then why does he send the sinner to hell, and not just the sin?

a reply to: ketsuko

So you cannot be born gay

How do you know this? Is it written somewhere - or do you deduce this?

I hold out no hope of you replying - but I am curious about certain things. Like - how we arrive at our conclusions

We know things now that we could never have known before. Addiction, violence, depression, sexuality - compassion, empathy - love...so many things are there in our makeup when we're born

The choices we make: kill or don't kill, steal or don't steal, lie or don't lie. Feed or don't feed, clothe, shelter, share or don't...these are choices. But even behind these choices we know now that it's all a mixture of nature and nurture

so when you say this:

So gays must not be irredeemable.

I wonder if you can understand why it rankles so many. Of course you can - intellectually. But, maybe not really?

There are people throughout history that have suffered at the hands of people that do believe that these people are irredeemable

When the choices become really tough - we wash our hands of them and talk about demons

We are born - that is pretty much as far as that should go. Sin - if it exists - is apparently not something we are capable of understanding. It's something that has been dictated to us. Then we either believe - or we don't

What is sin ketsuko?

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

LOL!!
I love the look on the cop's face, smiling at that guy.
Pure Gold.

a reply to: VegHead

Mister Rogers (yes, Mister Rogers) was an ordained minister. People would sometimes try to challenge him or trip him up by asking him what he would say to a (gasp!) non-Christian or a (gasp!) homosexual. Mister Roger's response was always the same - He'd say "God loves you just the way you are."

Hey, I'm glad you quoted Mr Rogers!

When my kids were preschoolers (20+ years ago), we would watch it together. Sometimes the man actually brought tears to my eyes - his words made me feel like I was an acceptable person, and I will never forget him.

Anyhow just bumped into jesus down town and I said "oi jesus you got a beef with gay folk?" He took off his shades and said "nah man we are all gods children".
Then he took off at speed on a camel.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko

So you cannot be born gay

How do you know this? Is it written somewhere - or do you deduce this?



I hold out no hope of you replying - but I am curious about certain things. Like - how we arrive at our conclusions



We know things now that we could never have known before. Addiction, violence, depression, sexuality - compassion, empathy - love...so many things are there in our makeup when we're born



The choices we make: kill or don't kill, steal or don't steal, lie or don't lie. Feed or don't feed, clothe, shelter, share or don't...these are choices. But even behind these choices we know now that it's all a mixture of nature and nurture



so when you say this:

So gays must not be irredeemable.

I wonder if you can understand why it rankles so many. Of course you can - intellectually. But, maybe not really?



There are people throughout history that have suffered at the hands of people that do believe that these people are irredeemable



When the choices become really tough - we wash our hands of them and talk about demons



We are born - that is pretty much as far as that should go. Sin - if it exists - is apparently not something we are capable of understanding. It's something that has been dictated to us. Then we either believe - or we don't



What is sin ketsuko?

We know that people were not born gay by the lack of a slong in them at the time.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Anyhow just bumped into jesus down town and I said "oi jesus you got a beef with gay folk?" He took off his shades and said "nah man we are all gods children".
Then he took off at speed on a camel.

LOL!!
Well, I guess that settles it then.

(Hope the camel doesn't shy at traffic!)

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It does settle it may as well close the thread and if anyone asks just point them to my post.

a reply to: ketsuko

Wasn't it Paul who claimed we're all born into sin?

It seems just when we're actually getting somewhere some Christian always has to come along and flush said progress down the proverbial toilet...

All scripture is NOT God breathed.... Paul used that little trinket to get his writing into circulation...

IF that was the case there would be 80 some odd extra books in the bible...

All scripture is Man Made...

Thanks everyone for keeping the discussion going.

(doing 4th of July stuff with the family, happy 4th, by the way)

I don't think an agreement will ever be made. A consensus is not forthcoming.

But I feel better about my position on the matter (if I may be so selfish)

If Jesus could be so forgiving, then who am I to not to try to emulate him.

Determining if it is a sin?

Gods final judgment can handle that. That is way above my pay grade and is not my place to judge.

I want to thank everyone for an informative and enlightening thread. As previously stated, doing this is way out of my usual comfort zone, so I appreciate everyone's patience.

Cheers

beez

a reply to: dashen

I hate that you got as many stars are you did for your offtopic post.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: charles1952

But religion teaches us to emulate and follow the teachings (in this case) of the Son of God.

WWJD?

Shouldn't we be paying more attention to his approach rather than just his followers?

(I know, blasphemy on my part)

But the way I see the bible is similar to that party game where one person whispers in someones ear, then that person whispers in anothers ear. . . until you finally get to the end, and it doesn't sound anything like the original message.

and if more Christians were like what you quote here then my LGBT brothers/sister wouldn't be so damn afraid to be themselves.

This is a Pagan talking so please be gentle on my understanding...I haven't been Christian in like two decades

Jesus loved all and preached that everywhere he went. I won't bother detailing what members have already said...jesus loved those who murdered him even...blah blah

but see beezzer is a real person...hell not even bothering calling you a Christian...in this case you are being a genuine person. You don't have to agree with who I am. In fact I will never burn you for disagreeing. Instead, while some may not 100% agree, you've chosen to live and let live and not judge and I damn sure remember that from Vacation Bible School all those years ago.

But now stepping away from your words, let's look at Jesus to stay on topic. He traveled all over and preached that all are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven...ALL. It took belief and faith and right doing and you would be in Heaven everlasting.

If for a moment I step back into the Christian faith, God made me. He made me who I am and knows what I do and feel. I can't hide that. I love men, women, trans, everyone. It would be pretty silly for JC to tell me publically that all are accepted and all are worthy and then turn and tell me that because I am pan that I am suddenly not worthy

That was an invention of man. Judgement, as i recall from VBS and church, was for one being...God. He would sort of the wicked from the righteous and yet every single friggin day man KNOWS 100% that the word of God was to let HIM do the judging, and yet they still judge. It's pathetic and it's self serving and selfish

I know you didn't do this for stars and flags but you get both from this silly Pagan

originally posted by: beezzer

My problem is twofold.

1) God does not create people to be an abomination. God creates people. Ergo, there must be a reason why God created people who are gay.


I don't mean to be difficult. I don't often enter in the realm of religious debate, I'm not that smart.

But sometimes I think that others interpret too much into it.

and I am going to put another horse in this race

Actually I think you are being terrifically intelligent here by embracing simplicity.

1. God, if he is to be believed, created me, you and all the LGBT members. Whether we were born gay or became is irrelevant because as the all-knowing, all-seeing, he knew we'd either be born that way or embrace and find ourselves that way.

So keep is SUPER simple

He made us knowing we would do these deeds or have these feelings. So why would he allow that to happen and then condemn us for the same?

2. We have to always remember that the bible is first-and-foremost written by the hand of man. It is not inconceivable that the very few lines regarding homosexuality as a sin could have been penned in b a bigot

it's so simple...and you are doing fine in keeping it simple

Despite the best efforts of some posters, I find this to be a difficult and confusing thread. I wish we could all meet for a four hour session at a pizza house, order a couple of pitchers, and find out what we're talking about.

I realize that one poster believes it can all be made very simple. God made gays, God only makes good things, therefore Gays are good.

With a little thought, any of us should be able to prepare a two or three page essay on those statements alone. Start with the first, "God made Gays."

Beezzer reminds us that stressful conditions, like overcrowding, can change genes or their functions over time. (I'm probably mistaking his statement, but I think I'm close.) That would not be God's doing. Some scientists insist that a combination of nature and nurture shape almost all of our behavior and conditions. Again, the upbringing of a particular individual is not God's doing.

At some point, there are individuals who experience sexual attraction for the same sex, homosexuals. Even if you conclude that the attraction is entirely placed by God, and very few scientists do, what does that show? If you are following the logic you're proposing, then God also made people with an attraction for other behaviors. There is no need to go through the list, just consider bosses with an extremely competitive nature who will trample anyone to get what they want.

In effect then, God made murders, thieves, adulterers, hateful people, traitors, etc. I would think you would be uncomfortable saying, "God made Stalin who killed millions, God doesn't make bad things, therefore mass international murderers are good things."

Isn't the question, "What do people attracted to any behavior do if they learn their attraction is to something immoral, or sinful, or wrong, or whatever word you want to use?" If a ruthless judge restrains himself and shows mercy, or a boss praises a subordinate knowing that he won't be able to claim the credit for himself, or if a self-centered person stops in the street and gives a man a dollar, have they not all done something the world would see as good and a victory over a temptation?

My understanding is that a homosexual has the attraction, but doesn't have to do the deed. That is truly a choice.

So, "God made Gays?" It depends on what you mean.

We can do the same kind of questioning on the statements "God only makes good things," and "Therefore Gays are good." I do get awfully wordy though, so let me stop here. If you really want to suffer through more, I'll oblige, but I think this post has offered something to think about.

originally posted by: charles1952


Beezzer reminds us that stressful conditions, like overcrowding, can change genes or their functions over time. (I'm probably mistaking his statement, but I think I'm close.) That would not be God's doing. Some scientists insist that a combination of nature and nurture shape almost all of our behavior and conditions. Again, the upbringing of a particular individual is not God's doing.

and yet God knows that this WILL occur and still punishes...though again this IS written by man so it could all be BS. So if you want to admit that being gay is a part of nature and nurture, then how can God punish someone for something that isn't their fault? So scientists admit that I am pan because of upbringing or some chemical issue. Did God magically not know that was going to happen to me? And yes he made me knowing my ultimate outcome.

And then you have the idea that it is somehow 'ok' for me to like guys but if I give in to my desires with a guy then I am wrong and will go to hell. So yes I am built this way. To deny me the opportunity to love a guy is total BS if my love is genuine and legit. And last I checked, physical intimacy is part of relationships. If I have to keep my hands off a guy I love then I think hetero couples should have to do the same

but then again...I think it's only responsible to remember again that this is a book of man...written by man so how much could it have changed?

and the relationship to murderers is not quite appropriate. Rape, murder and genocide hurts people. My doing things with a guy hurts nobody as long as we are consensual. Things that harm others = bad. Things that are consensual and bring no harm = fine IMO

but just my thoughts

a reply to: KyoZero

Dear KyoZero,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I'm grateful. If you didn't, all I'd have were my own thoughts and it's hard to test them when nobody challenges them.

I think you prove too much when you say:

and yet God knows that this WILL occur and still punishes

God knows that hatred and murder and theft, and all of the rest will occur, too. I would be uncomfortable saying that God would not punish them.

You make the distinction between acts that hurt people unwillingly and those that don't. (S and M hurts, but it's entered into willingly) It's a good distinction and you're right to make it. It works especially well in determining human laws. "If no one is hurt, then it's OK."

The problem is, we're not looking at human laws. This discussion is about Jesus and God's laws. (At least that's what the OP says.) So, if God has a law, say, "Do this in remembrance of Me" (referring to Communion, or the Lord's Supper, or whatever name it has) and we refuse to without good reason, knowing that it is a command from God, we're in trouble.

Nobody was "hurt" by not taking Communion, but God doesn't use that as the only criterion for sin (or law breaking, or whatever). We have to play by His rules, not ours.

And then you have the idea that it is somehow 'ok' for me to like guys but if I give in to my desires with a guy then I am wrong and will go to hell.

I didn't say anything about Hell, but other than that, you're right.

To deny me the opportunity to love a guy is total BS if my love is genuine and legit. And last I checked, physical intimacy is part of relationships.

Ah, yes, "genuine and legit." If we think it's genuine and legit, then surely God must agree with us?

I know a man who is married. His wife has grown cold to him because her first husband was abusive and she has never been able to warm up to a man, no matter how much her husband has tried. They both thought she could, but she couldn't. Is it right for that man to find another woman to have sex with, in order to get that "physical intimacy?" Of course, not. He's married and sex with another woman is adultery, even if he and the other woman willingly agree to it. He's in a spot where physical intimacy is either unlikely with his wife or wrong with another woman.

I know another man who has been married for many years. His wife developed a medical condition. Without going into details, "physical intimacy," by which you mean sex, is impossible, but they still have a strong relationship. There is a difference between love and sex. There are posters I love, but have never seen, and probably never will.

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to write back to me, much appreciated.

With respect,
Charles1952

No, but exchange the adulteress woman he forgave, for a gay person, his comment was, I don't condemn you either, BUT sin no more.

It really is that simple.

See John Chapter 8: 1-11

There are former homosexuals in heaven right now.
Do you really think they continued to practice homosexual acts to get there ?

As they Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:11, that's what some of you were, but you changed.
It is the greatest cognitive dissonance for a person to think God will understand and forgive people who refuse to change when judgement day comes for all of us in the near future. Thats not to say homosexuals that have died or will die before that time aren't forgiven, because they are.

My point is this practicer's of adultery are in the exact same boat as homosexuals, sin is sin to God he doesn't rank them, like humans do.

I find it very interesting that this one particularly sin has the greatest cause for justification, more than any other really.