evolution realy? how?

Originally posted by instar
Ninki, please explain vestigal appendages in animal and humans. Human appendix for example, if it wasnt once a functional organ why is it there?
why does the Burtons legless lizard have tiny vestigal back limbs? what point do they serve if they have always been exactly the same?
why does a girraff have such a long neck? If it was always the same? to reach tall trees which didnt exist so long ago?
why do flightless birds have wings? cave dwelling species have vestigal eyes when there is nothing to see in complete darkness? or deep dwelling ocean fish have luminous tentacles?
Evolution makes sense even if if the idea of having evolved from animals offends you because it makes you an animal and you beleive you are different, better, not an animal!

I just want to applaud you for your thought out response. Cangrats on your ability to think freely and accept knowledge and fact!

keep in mind seapeople, ninki believes in evolution.

(edited)and yet his topic is *evolution realy? how?*

[edit on 12/11/2004 by cheeser]

Originally posted by cheeser
keep in mind seapeople, ninki believes in evolution.

Oh, I know.....I know....

back to this:

Originally posted by ninki
we share close dna with chimps and yeast...who gives a flippin hoot

All I could find on this apparent 'fact' was a small and vague mention of yeast on 'christian answers' and 'answersingenis'.. [only sites that matched the search] I didn't find one actual objective SCIENTIFIC source or specifically what the dna similarity is.. only things mixed in with proverb.
The credibility of this seems dubious.

www.scienceblog.com...

this is a great site that tells you alot about yeast genetics.

here is what i found the key points if u cbf reading it (from above site)
-*Yeast contains the largest genome--or full set of genetic instructions--to be completely deciphered so far. Furthermore, the single-celled yeast is the most advanced organism yet to be sequenced, belonging, with humans, to a group called "eukaryotes."* - eukaryotes means cell with distinct nucleus.*
-*All eukaryotes share similarities in their cellular anatomy, including a distinct nucleus and compartmental structures for carrying out specialized processes.*
-*Containing some 6,000 genes arranged on 16 chromosomes*
-*"The yeast genome is closer to the human genome than anything completely sequenced so far,"*
-*Humans and yeast, for example, share a number of similarities in their genetic make up. For one, many regions of yeast DNA contain stretches of DNA subunits, called bases, that are very close or identical to those in human DNA. These similarities tell scientists the genes in those regions play a critical role in cell function in both species, or they would have been lost during the 1 billion years of evolution that separate yeast and humans. About one-third of yeast genes are related to those in the human. Some of these critical processes include DNA copying and repair of damaged DNA, protein synthesis and transport across membranes, and control of metabolic processes. In cancer research, S. cerevisiae has emerged as an important model for studying control of the eukaryotic cell cycle.*

posted by ninki

we share close dna with chimps and yeast...who gives a flippin hoot

according to this source, we share 1/3 the DNA with yeast.
humans have 23 chromosomes in a haploid cell, while chimps have 24, while yeast has 16.... hmhmmm....

Clearly the comparison between humans and chimps is not on the same scale as the comparison with humans and yeast. Clearly they are on a different levels.

Dogs have a haploid number of 38.
Is it just coincidental that humans and chimps have the close chromosome number or is this just because they are similair biologically compared to most other organisms?









[edit on 12/11/2004 by cheeser]

Originally posted by cheeser
according to this source, we share 1/3 the DNA with yeast.
humans have 23 chromosomes in a haploid cell, while chimps have 24, while yeast has 16.... hmhmmm....

Clearly the comparison between humans and chimps is not on the same scale as the comparison with humans and yeast. Clearly they are on a different levels.

Thanks for providing that info.
I suspected it was not what was inferred.. no surprise the genesis/chritainanswers websites didn't specify the true difference.. kind of makes all the difference.

'well humans are just as related to yeast than they are to humans so there!!.'
Very missleading.. isn't it meant to be a sin to claim false witness? They ommit facts and replace them with their own 'versions' of them to fit their own agenda [bad science].. boarders on disinformation.

Alright now everybody dogpile!!!! that will scare her into thinking like we do !!!!!lets start with RILEY -accessexcellence.org go there to read about your yeast problem.
ALECEIFFEL - 4% actually we share less than 95% i was giving you more credit that deserved....see newscientist.com
SEAPEOPLE -please do not lower yourself to my level , stay stuck up where its warm and dark, its safer there for you....answers to questions 1-8 are as follows YES.....but we were and always will be human, i have already stated that i believe in evolution inside a species...not outside.
INSTAR - i propose to you that rather our earth has changed to something much different than it was pre- flood, hence leaving some animals with what you think would be pointless appendages.and you are right i am not an animal and nor are you, we were created by god for god.

Originally posted by ninki
Alright now everybody dogpile!!!!that will scare her into thinking like we do !!!!!

Um.. You asked a question.. it got answered.. [though probably not the anwers you were counting on]..what did you expect? We are sorry if facts scare you.. perhaps you should not ask for them.

lets start with RILEY -accessexcellence.org go there to read about your yeast problem.

Caww!! thats getting a bit personal.. I'll buy some yoghurt right away. I must say.. it was very clever for you to try insult me by questioning my personal hygiene. Yay for you!!!!

Ninki, so you say yes to all of those questions? Ok then.

So lets take this a step further, yes or no again please....Dont you just love me!

You say that humans then could change....but still be humans. According to you, answering yes to all of those questions, leaves these changes as a necessity. You said yes, there would definitely be changes by necessity.

Now that thats cleared up, lets continue. Here is a scenerio. A group of humans lives in the center of a landmass. It splits up into 3 groups. One travels 1000 miles north, where the temeperature is significantly lower, food sources are much different, ect. The other travels 1000 miles south, where the temperature is significantly warmer, with many different environmental aspects. The other stays put.

Questions:

1) You said that you agree humans change genetically by necessity in a previous post. Now with two different scenerios, would it not be necessary by the same rules, for the two groups to change over a course of time in two different ways based on two seperate environmental conditions (at least)? Yes or No.

2) If the northern group seperated into two groups, and travelled 1000 miles in opposite directions "east and west", would that not also provide even more necessary changes? Yes or No.

3) If one of those 2 previously mentioned groups travelled back to the starting point after 1000 years, wouldn't they have been forced over time...by necessity (according to your own words none the less) to have aquired many different changes and traits? Yes or No.

4) Isn't it possible then, that an aquired trait fom one of these roaming groups would help them survive better than the original group in the center? Yes or No.

5) By chance if it did, wouldn't that by necessity then provide the original groups gene pool with significant competition, diluting it and destroying it over time? Yes or No.

6) Now you have a new, changed group in the middle, could not that same scenerio described in the previous questions happen again? Yes or No.

7) Therefore, couldn't significant changes occur by necessity, eponentially over a large period of time? Yes or No.

8) Open ended: What limit do you personally place on these changes?

Please, answer all thee questions Ninki, they are more difficult. (I think she will start to shy away from my yes or no's soon, because her own answers leave no alternative)

Could you please explain this better Ninki?

INSTAR - i propose to you that rather our earth has changed to something much different than it was pre- flood, hence leaving some animals with what you think would be pointless appendages.and you are right i am not an animal and nor are you, we were created by god for god.

how did they get left with useless appendages? did god say"let them go about with useless appendages" and behold it was so? Perhaps the flood was so great it washed the lizards legs right off? turning into a legless lizard? How about cave dwelling species with useless eyes that dont see?
how about flightless birds?
Seriously Ninki, you answer questions with vague statements that dont explain anything. Please consider the problem of vestigal appendages etc very carefully then post what you feel might be a likely explaination. I wont laugh at you, I'll appreciate the effort you put into thinking about it seriously rather than just post a quick vague meaningless answer ok.

i would like to just point out that there is the possibility that these appendages are defects.. like genetic mutations. the law of thermodynamics in action..that expresses things are getting worse...many creatures are born with appendages like that...

Originally posted by jeshua
i would like to just point out that there is the possibility that these appendages are defects.. like genetic mutations. the law of thermodynamics in action..that expresses things are getting worse...many creatures are born with appendages like that...

It was only a matter of time before one of you people would try to use physics and science to rule out evolution in a compeltely far out and illogical manner. A mannor that one of your pastors took a long time to come up with, and one that you listened to without question.

I explained before in one of these evolution threads that this would happen, I predicted you. I also explained why you are so wrong in your twisted thought process.

You should answer some of my yes and no questions for starters. Secondly, you should read up on entropy. The laws of thermodynamics do say that everything tries to achieve a randomness and disorder. By physics this is correct. This is correct on a quantum level. If you want me to get really deep into why you are wrong I will, but for now I will say this. it is precisely these laws applied on a quantum scale that make evolution possible. When you have children, the child will carry some traits of the father, and some of the mother. 100% of the time, that child will ALSO CARRY RANDOM TRAITS OF ITS OWN. These random traits are the ones that enable global change on a genetic level. These random traits are precisely why evolution occurs.

SEAPEOPLE- i would say that your use of the term "you people" would make you sound like a biggot, now, now we wouldent want that would we?
answers to questions #1 yes #2 yes #3 yes #4 yes # 5 yes # 6 yes # 7 trick question-i do not believe that the amount of time that you believe in did elapse, and still i only believe we can be human. I do not think that even though the human race changes that means that we used to be monkeys, or fish or bacteria...do you get it yet or not?
#8 the limit i put on all things, is gods limit..if he said it it happened ..if he did it its truth..and sence i believe god to be beyond our understanding i would say he can do what he wants and it does not realy matter if we dont like it.......INSTAR- i dont care if you laugh it might feel good go ahead ,but i do thank you for patronizing me. my answer remains the same our earth has greatly changed sence the flood, let fish grow snouts i dont care they still stay a fish, a snout fish.let humans get short, tall, black white,red i dont care we are still human, and to us god has granted the wisdom of the mind he has given us understanding,,,,,,some choose not to use it, or are willingly ignorant of the gifts that he has given.

Your welcome Ninki! It was richly deserved . You asked the question
"evolution, really, how?" And you were answered. Then you refute the answers, so are asked a question and you could not answer it, because your bible mentions nothing about the question. This leaves you rather redfaced and standing on one leg dont it! I beleive In God but Im sensible enough to reason that evolution is not exclusive to creation, it just took longer! Why do you assume God didnt Create via evolution? Why should he tell you how or why he created things in your bible? If you close your mind you insult God, since he gave you a mind so you could reason and use logic, look at the world around you and learn of his incredible creation for yourself. Seems all too easy for an omnipotent god to wave his hand and say "Be so". Dont you think that evolution glorify's god all the more?

INSTAR-if evolution were true, why are we not living longer, living healthier,and becoming more beutiful in every way? we should be supermen by now...

Originally posted by ninki
INSTAR-if evolution were true, why are we not living longer, living healthier,and becoming more beutiful in every way? we should be supermen by now...

If it is true that we evolved from apes then I would have to say in comparison we are supermen. Evolution does not necessarily mean that we all learn to fly or have super strength; it means that our brains and bodies develop more proficiently in order to adapt better to our reality. We have become masters of our domain to such an extent that it is no longer our bodies that need to evolve.

Originally posted by ninki
INSTAR-if evolution were true, why are we not living longer, living healthier,and becoming more beutiful in every way? we should be supermen by now...

We are living longer, if only because of advancements in medicine and tecknology. In the middle ages the average life span was about 3o, its now 80. We're not living healthier (most of us ) because we eat things that are not healthy, smoke, drink, take drugs etc. This is personal choice, you know it as Free will. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Neither of these has directly to do with physical evolution, rather tecknological evolution. Of more concern should be spiritual evolution.

actually people were known to live much longer pre flood, and post flood. also if the point of evolving is just to better the brain...whats up with monkeys? they live with us, we can show them things, but we cannot breach the gap...why? they are not, and will never become human, just as we are not and never were, monkeys.

You asked Instar a question I would like to answer. I will wait for an OK though.

So, anyway, what we have established so far by Ninki's own admission, is that humans and all other living creatures on earth evolve. We have established by her own words that they do so sometimes in a dramatic fasion and by necessity.

Now we have established that evolution definitely does occur. Over the spread of several different threads and post's, we have come to the conclusion that animals have actually changed their appearance dramatically and that it is documented due to environmental factors. We have established that bacteria's and viruses can evolve to such a dramatic extent that their structure and habbits compeltely change.

I wont get into any advanced science right now, but I will if I think Ninki is up for it later. What I will do is disect for all of you the flawed mental process that leads Ninki to her conclusions. It all stems back to her strong belief in the words of the bible. Particularly, the creation story in this instance.

So Ninki, I decided to give you another type of quiz. A bible quiz. Lets see how you do here. I would hope well since you obviously base your entire life's decisions and beliefs in the words of this book.

1) According to the bible, has anyone ever seen the face of God? (Refer to John 1:18, John 4:12 and John 6:46)
2) Does God repent, make mistakes, or change his mind? (Refer to Numbers 23:19 and Ezekiel 24:14)
3) (this is a biggie that indirectly relates to creation) Is their carried sin, from adam and eve? (refer to Exodus 20:5, Exodus 34:6-7 and Corinthians 15:22)

This is just a starter quiz, soplease Ninki....Provide me with the answers.

SEAPEOPLE- start a new thread that reads tests for my adgendaby DR.seapeople. Advance science and sparing me?please you will be the one who needs sparing...I have a flawed mentall process? that is so juvinile that i almost feel like not responding to you..almost...whats your point with your last questions? you never seem to get to that, every answer given just leads to more questions by you,,questions in wich, i feel you think you are confusing the issue so much that people can stay in their darkness. your type of thinking thrives on confussion of issues.and guess what I WILL SEE MY SAVIORS FACE!!!...if you know the answers already to your bible quiz then get to the point..