NEWS: Red Cross accuses US of torture in Guantanamo

There is no proof that Margaret Hassan has been killed. The body found in Iraq was not hers.

From linked article
A mutilated body found in Iraq is not that of kidnapped aid worker Margaret Hassan, the British government said Wednesday. But the Foreign Office said it continued to believe Hassan had been murdered, although the evidence was not conclusive.

The Foreign Office said dental tests conducted in the United States showed the body of a woman of Western appearance, found in Fallujah last month by U.S. Marines, was not Hassan.

source

Just thought I'd post that before this arguement gets out of control and off topic.

jsobecky,

as psychoses already pointed out, there is no reason to believe MH is dead. And even if she is dead, who tells you she was not a CIA spy, like many others who were abducted and killed by the mujahideen ? The mujahideen have a history of releasing innocent prisoners (two french journalists, italian aid workers, even Allawi relatives), unlike the US. Furthermore, why do you hype over ONE innocent victim when more than a hundred thousands innocent victims have already been murdered at the hands of Bush ? If double standards wasnt your middle name, you'd plot to assassinate mister Bush by now.

[edit on 2-12-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
jsobecky,

as psychoses already pointed out, there is no reason to believe MH is dead. And even if she is dead, who tells you she was not a CIA spy, like many others who were abducted and killed by the mujahideen ?

Psychoses is talking about an entirely different instance. That one was the body of a western woman WHOSE ARMS AND LEGS HAD BEEN CUT OFF AND HER THROAT SLIT.

Nice people you love, Mokuhadzushi. Cowards, every one of them. Scum.

Psychoses and your statement about whether Hassan is dead are nothing more than apologetic, sycophantic love for murderers. There is a videotape showing her being shot in the head by one of your hero cowards wearing a ski mask.

Their days are numbered, Mokuhadzushi, and so are the days of those who support them.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Volksgeist
It seems that some are incapable of justifying the treatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Instead they juxtapose the Iraqi "terrorists" with the American military. Do people do this because they are incapable of distinguishing the two, or because they find it too difficult to justify the treatment of "detainees"?.

No, I'll justify it. I don't believe that they are innocent. I don't care if they haven't been charged. We're fighting for our survival, and if we have to hurt them to get the info we need, then, fine by me. Temperature extremes and isolation aren't torture in my eyes.

You seem to miss the point. Do you honestly believe all the men in Guantanamo Bay were in a position to know the future plans of Al-Quada. In fact most men captured in Afghanistan had no ties to Al-Quada. They fought for the Taliban. They were effectively the military of Afghanistan. So it isn't solely a question of torturing "terrorists" for information on the "next attack", it's a question of whether combatents are to be held indefinitly without charge.

Posted by jsobecky
Psychoses and your statement about whether Hassan is dead are nothing more than apologetic, sycophantic love for murderers

Well just for the record, I wasn't doing anything of the sort! I was merely providing information which showed your statement to be incorrect. Nothing more.

The "official" position is that "A Foreign Office spokesman said Wednesday that officials still believe Hassan was killed, although they cannot be absolutely certain until her body is recovered."

So to say that Hassan has in fact been killed is purely speculation on your part and nothing more. Lets just stick with the facts, shall we.

In another blow for the U'S administration, a 115 page report has detailed the abuses suffered by three detainees held for 2 � years at camp x-ray,

from linked article
�It is a very sad day for the United States, and humanity in general, to learn the details of what has been happening at Guant�namo Bay,� said Clive Stafford Smith, founder of Reprieve and a lawyer for many of the detainees. �It is torture pure and simple. It is cruel, and it is pointless. We have known since the Middle Ages that no useful information can come out of coerced confessions.�

source

The men were released and returned to the U.K. They were never charged with any crime and were released shortly after they returned.

I think this highlights the need for people to be proven guilty before they are subjected to the torturous treatment at the hands of the Bush administration.

Originally posted by Psychoses
Well just for the record, I wasn't doing anything of the sort! I was merely providing information which showed your statement to be incorrect. Nothing more.

No, my statement was not incorrect. I was aware that the torso of a woman had been found, and that it was not Hassan. Your response to that was unnecessary and redundant.

I did point out the fact that a videotape of Hasssan being shot in the head by a ski-masked coward scum was released. Al Jazeera acknowledged the tape, but true to their cowardly ways, didn't release it because it would "upset some viewers", in their words. In actuality, they know that even their worship of the terrorists must show some limits.

Margaret Hassan was shot and executed. There is tape to prove it.

So to say that Hassan has in fact been killed is purely speculation on your part and nothing more. Lets just stick with the facts, shall we.

Margaret Hassan was shot and executed. There is tape to prove it. Your pathetic attempts to defend the cowardly terrorists do not change that fact.

Ok, I'm quite new to this forum but I would like to see what I can contribute.

I believe that terrorists are obviously in the wrong, yet this isn't to say that the United States isn't in the wrong also.

Gto Bay is a terrible thing no doubt. It obviously goes against every principle for due process of law that we have previously established. That, plus it is a mechanism of discrimination for you know that Gto Bay has about 2,000 arabs and maybe 1 white guy. To warrant the unjustified acts of Gto Bay I would just point to the fact that around 20 people of these thousands have actually been convicted of something and most of these 20 have been convicted of illegal immigration and shipped out. The rest of the people stay there for a year without a trial, a lawyer, knowing what they did wrong and are tortured.

Someone previously said that having to sit in certain positions wouldnt be a bad thing but it can be. I used to have to do wall-sits for football and on the videos I have seen them making the prisoners do something alike this. A wall-sit is where you put your back to the wall and squat. You have to hold it for long periods of time and it is very difficult and painful.

But what the argument over Gto Bay comes down to is wrongful imprisonment. Many of the people detained have been set free after about a year or so. This means that the government is admitting they were wrong and these people were NOT terrorists. Put yourself in their position: you were discriminated against for your race and imprisoned for a year. That has got to suck. And taking up arms against the person that wrongfully imprisoned you this way doesnt seem that radical.

But since it has never happened to me and since I'm a white dude in college, I am quite content with just speaking about it.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
The International Commitee of the Red Cross, Geneva, has found that different torture methods are being used by US interrogators at the prison camp in Guantanamo, Cuba.

This is a very serious matter, and should be fully and openly investigated. After that assinine debacle over abu garaib, where ngo's had been reporting for a long time that there was abuse, and they were found to be correct, there should be not mucking around.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
The detainees in Guantanamo are innocent because no charge has been filed against them.

Charges are irrelevant. They were irregular soldiers caputred on the field of battle. They can be detained permanently or executed with out tribunal. They should be investigated, interrogated, and the government should try them in one way or another, because thats the most sensible thing to do. But these people have no inherent right to a trial or charges or release.

Perhaps instead of our interrogation methods, a video depicting a beheading of a truly innocent victim would be more to your satisfaction?

Most of the victims of beheading get a trial (mostly on grounds of espionage or cooperation with the enemy) by mujahideen prior to being sentenced to death or released.

Actually they are having trials of the people being held in guntanemo. and they are not executing them. Besides, this entire claim is 'malarky'. Margaret Hassan was a spy and enemy of the islamic state eh? Or she was let go right? But just hasn't shown up anyway?
Face it, those animals abused and mutilated her.

Posted by jsobecky
Margaret Hassan was shot and executed. There is tape to prove it.

I find your position on this matter incredible to say the least. You admit that you haven't seen the tape, yet are adamant that it is irrefutable proof of Hassan's death, even though the officials who have seen it clearly state that they can't be certain it's her?

Posted by jsobecky
No, I'll justify it. I don't believe that they are innocent. I don't care if they haven't been charged. We're fighting for our survival, and if we have to hurt them to get the info we need, then, fine by me.

So given the fact that information has come to light that some of these detainees are in fact innocent do you still stand by this statement?

Originally posted by Psychoses
I find your position on this matter incredible to say the least. You admit that you haven't seen the tape, yet are adamant that it is irrefutable proof of Hassan's death, even though the officials who have seen it clearly state that they can't be certain it's her?

Where did I say that I haven't seen the tape?

Posted by jsobecky
No, I'll justify it. I don't believe that they are innocent. I don't care if they haven't been charged. We're fighting for our survival, and if we have to hurt them to get the info we need, then, fine by me.

So given the fact that information has come to light that some of these detainees are in fact innocent do you still stand by this statement?

Sure do. Why in the world would we release these people back into the mainstream when at least some of them are guilty of terrorism against our country? It'll just take some time to sort it out. We wouldn't be in this position if they had just stayed in their caves and off of our planes. We're playing with the gloves off from now on. Their fault, not ours.

Plus, I don't believe that any info has come forth proving their innocence.

Well jsoBecky, if you positively condone the torture of innocent human beings who have committed no crimes, you are truly a deranged creature who should seek psychiatric help immediately.

There is no situation, no matter how extreme, that can ever justify the infliction of severe pain and suffering, whether it be mental or physical, on one individual by another. It is these actions that are corroding the very fabric of our society.

Torture is wrong. Period. It is an affront to the very values and beliefs that we as a society claim to uphold. Spare me all the hair splitting and pointless rationalizations. There can be no possible excuse. You make me sick.

How long will it take that something is going to be done to this usa torturing people issue. UN is powerless because usa uses it�s veto to get diplomatic immunity to their troops at international war crimes court. And other nations just watch and do nothing.
-ap

Originally posted by Psychoses
There is no situation, no matter how extreme, that can ever justify the infliction of severe pain and suffering, whether it be mental or physical, on one individual by another. It is these actions that are corroding the very fabric of our society.

Some of the flight attendants had their throats slit with boxcutters on 9/11 before the planes hit the towers. Now, if given a choice, what would you choose: a slit throat, or a fiery death?

Chew on that and then talk to me about "the infliction of severe pain and suffering, whether it be mental or physical, on one individual by another"

These are the people that you agonize over. It takes all sorts to make up this world, including those who would murder us and those, like you, who would kiss their feet.

:shk:

jsobecky, you are advocating illegal torutre against a group of suspects. These people perhaps include real terrorists, but most of them are just enemy fighters, bakers from around the corner, or drivers. Many of them are probably as guilty of 9/11 as you are. Before credibly advocating violence against them, you should volunteer as a CIA spy to china, get caught, tortured three years, get exchanged, come back to the US. We'll see how you'll be talking then about human rights abuses.

i just cannot see a connection between alleged flight crew slicing and iraq citizens tortured at guantamo. Except the hate towards america..Maybe those insurgents should stop beheading and just torture american soldiers for months, that would balance the case a bit.
-ap

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The british stood in nice neat lines while the "colonist" hide like cowards behind rocks.

They still did not flay the skins of captured british soliders, smother loyalists babies in their cribs or poison the wells of entire towns that were loyalist.

As long as "we" play by some stupid rules the terrorist will always win.

As long as the US adheres to the conventions then civilized nations that the US goes to war with will also adhere to them. The fact that some barbarians in the desert are acting like animals does not mean that the west or the US need act like them.

Originally posted by Volksgeist
Instead they juxtapose the Iraqi "terrorists" with the American military. Do people do this because they are incapable of distinguishing the two, or because they find it too difficult to justify the treatment of "detainees"?.

The people caught in afghanistan would have the same legal status as the terrorists/insurgents in iraq. This would be opposed to say members of the republican guard or iraqi army that were captured. Infact, since saddam has not signed any Article of Capitulation, any uniformed iraqi soliders captured now would and should be given the full protections of geneva.

Most detainees were captured in Afghanistan, and you may have noticed that there have been very few beheadings (if any) in Afghanistan.

Right, they were only hanging enemies of islam in the soccer stadiums and doling out honour killings to their women. The taliban were irregular soliders and their 'governement' was not legal nor recognized. A talibani captured in afghanistan has the same legal status as al zarqawi.

You may have also noticed that the majority of those captured were directly fighting the US coalition, and served as the practical military of Afghanistan.
Incorrect. The legitmate afghan governement, the one with the representative in the UN and the one recognized by the rest of the planet did not have soliders in uniform fighting agianst the coalition. The talibani did have gangs that were moderatley well organized and decently armed. If saudi arabia or pakistan went to war with the taliban and captured some of their troops, then things would be different, since those were the only two countries on the planet that recognized the Taliban as the official government there. Even then, since the taliban carry no military insignia nor uniforms nor any sort of identifying marks, things would be different.

So why are they not afforded the same rights that captured enemy soldiers have been given for centuries by civilised nations?

Because they are not a civlized nation. They are lopping the heads off of women in iraq and have long since gone 'commando' in afghanistan.

Originally posted by Carseller4
"humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions."


Let's face it some Muslims are whiners. Humiliating acts could be as simple as being interviewed by a female while in their underwear.

Or having a cattle prod shoved up their butts.

Solitary confinement, uhhh that is perfectly normal.

Actually being locked in a dark cell with no human communication for months at a time is -not- normal. I have no idea what your homelife is but i suspect most people would find that sort of thing unacceptable if it were applied to them.

Temperature extremes, I know these people aren't used to AC so that could be extreme, especially during summer in Cuba.

Lets be serious for a moment, the Red Cross is saying that these people are being abused. They said that about abu garaib and everyone said that they were bsers and whiners. Why not investigate detainee treatment, certianly internally the pentagon should do this, they failed to do even that in iraq. Sure, these people have no legal claim to some of these treatments, but why should the US torture and humiliate them? According to the insurgents in iraq, hassan had no legal claim to innocence, so they did god knows what to her and hacked her to death. Richard Perl was a jew investigating the fundamentalists, he didn't have any sort of legal status, he wasn't working for a government nor a uniformed officer, and there wasn't a declared war in pakistan, so they had every 'right' to rip his head from his body with a -knife- of all god damned things. But just because the US has the right to act like animals doesn't mean that it should or that it needs to.

moku
i can ask you if Luther said the following thing

So you think that lutherans then are justified in doing these things then? Doesn't that make the west justified in occupying and exploiting the middle east for the past couple of hundred years? Infact that (not that quote in particular) seems to justify the entire iraq war.

as psychoses already pointed out, there is no reason to believe MH is dead

Actually all that was pointed out was that her body has not been found.

And even if she is dead, who tells you she was not a CIA spy, like many others who were abducted and killed by the mujahideen ?

Sure, she was a CIA spy. You know what, why use any rules of war when fighting in this capacity? If the enemy can take and murder a woman who was a volunteer worker in the country for a decade and who saddam hussein of all people didn't execute, then why can't the US take iraqi, stick nightsticks uptheir butts and make them dance and sing 'i'm a little tea cup'? Oh, I know why, becuase the US and the west are civilized human beings, and the insurgents are animals.

volkgeist
Do you honestly believe all the men in Guantanamo Bay were in a position to know the future plans of Al-Quada

I don't. However, they were fighting against the US. If any of them weren't, then of course their case should be heard, and they are listening and reviewing cases, but the needn't have ever heard of al-qaida to be in the position they are in.

They were effectively the military of Afghanistan

The taliban was a brutal group of thugs who were wantonly destructive, were murdering people and oppressing people, and were harboring bin laden. What the US has done is say 'all such terrorists are legitimate targets'. So these men needn't be held for ties to al-qaida. They can be held soley because they are talibani.

jsobecky
Psychoses and your statement about whether Hassan is dead are nothing more than apologetic, sycophantic love for murderers

What kind of garbage is that? He merely pointed out there the body that was thought to be hers was of some other woman's. Its -possible- that hassan wasn't killed, and without seeing the video sent claiming that she was killed its hard for any of us to make a decision on that, however, given that the tape claims to kill hassan, and that the woman isn't definitively -not- hassan, and that, either way someone was killed, why think it was anyone else but hassan, who they said they would kill? But to call someone an apologist for those animals merely because they not that the body is not hers, is -wrong-.

psychoses
I think this highlights the need for people to be proven guilty before they are subjected to the torturous treatment at the hands of the Bush administration.

I think it demonstrates a need to not torture or abuse anyone