Atheists being persecuted in the USA.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

It's not the placebo effect.

It's simply that it's reassuring to believe in something greater than yourself, thus reducing anxiety, anxiety causing health issues.

A placebo is a simulated medical treatment.

I don't know where you get all these incorrect definition from?

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Well the thing is, I believe they are wrong. I do not know they are wrong, but I believe it.

If someone believes strongly in something which is wrong, then they are deluding themselves.

Now we arrive at the heart of the problem.

You BELIEVE they are wrong (but can't prove it) so you ASSUME they are deluded.

But for them to be deluded, you must be able to PROVE they are wrong, which you can't.



Like I said, I can understand your position, but good luck convincing anyone your own definition of delusion is now the new accepted one.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
I don't expect you to admit your definition of delusion is incorrect (and yet you can check it in a dictionary), but good luck convincing any mental health specialist that unprovable beliefs are delusions.

It's actually a subject of discussion and debate in some mental health under grad degrees etc ... I'd recommend reading Darian Leader's work also

Generally speaking it's accepted that many (read most) persons have some delusions but manage to lead perfectly healthy and productive lives whilst doing so. Still, the definitions of words aren't really mathematically absolute and what is or isn't a delusion is pretty subjective - especially in religious places.

Richard Dawkins would consider belief in Zeus to be delusional. I've met Zeus, is mostly an awesome person but went through this awful phase of turning into a goat and chasing people. Is over it now and is studying a degree in vet science.

Stupid delusional Dawkins.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

It's not the placebo effect.

It's simply that it's reassuring to believe in something greater than yourself, thus reducing anxiety, anxiety causing health issues.

A placebo is a simulated medical treatment.

I don't know where you get all these incorrect definition from?

Actually, a placebo not need be medical to be a placebo. It's basically any effect where you think something has done you some good, whether or not it actually has.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Well the thing is, I believe they are wrong. I do not know they are wrong, but I believe it.

If someone believes strongly in something which is wrong, then they are deluding themselves.

Now we arrive at the heart of the problem.

You BELIEVE they are wrong (but can't prove it) so you ASSUME they are deluded.

But for them to be deluded, you must be able to PROVE they are wrong, which you can't.



Like I said, I can understand your position, but good luck convincing anyone your own definition of delusion is now the new accepted one.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Yes, but as a belief (and not as a statement of absolute knowledge) I do not have to prove this position. I merely believe it to be true myself.

a reply to: Pinke

Honnestly Dawkins made a few stupid claims in his life (like everyone).

Like I said, I understand the position, but humans make assumptions all the time to be able to function without being crippled with doubt (we can't verify everything we believe in), it doesn't mean they are delusional.

A delusional person would for example claim that he is Napoleon. That's another level than people saying they believe in the existence of an greater consciousness than man (I don't even find the concept shocking, to deny it entirely seems quite arrogant).

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

And it's not the main reason why believers live longer. It's because they are less stressed and anxious about death and the apparent lack of meaning of life.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

And it's not the main reason why believers live longer. It's because they are less stressed and anxious about death and the apparent lack of meaning of life.

Almost the definition of a placebo. They believe it will do them some good, so it does them some good.

At any rate, are we done yet with the "I challenge your right to believe religious ppl are delusional" yet? Because I think there are much more interesting things to discuss.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

And it's not the main reason why believers live longer. It's because they are less stressed and anxious about death and the apparent lack of meaning of life.

Almost the definition of a placebo. They believe it will do them some good, so it does them some good.

At any rate, are we done yet with the "I challenge your right to believe religious ppl are delusional" yet? Because I think there are much more interesting things to discuss.

It's totally not the same thing.

Lol, I give up. I don't think you are capable to admit when you are wrong.

Yes, but as a belief (and not as a statement of absolute knowledge) I do not have to prove this position. I merely believe it to be true myself.

Why do you assume religious people claim to have absolute knowledge of the existence of god?

There lies your problem.

Most simply claim to believe and have faith, and even that it's hard to keep faith when they have no proof. I don't think I ever met a believer who told me "I know god exists" instead of "I believe".

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
Why do you assume religious people claim to have absolute knowledge of the existence of god?

There lies your problem.

Most simply claim to believe and have faith, and even that it's hard to keep faith when they have no proof. I don't think I ever met a believer who told me "I know god exists" instead of "I believe".

Well that is indeed part of the issue, people claiming absolute knowledge. I have had and have seen many religious people claim they have absolute knowledge of a god.

If they have some doubt, then good. They ought to. Good on them. I would encourage them to pursue their doubt and flesh it out. Doubt is the beginning of true knowledge. Doubt is healthy.

But many do not, or at least do not admit to any doubt.

To those who do doubt, fair enough. I still think (i.e I still believe - just to be clear) the belief in a god itself is delusional, but they are not completely beyond hope if they are not completely resigned to this position.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
But many do not, or at least do not admit to any doubt.

To those who do doubt, fair enough. I still think (i.e I still believe - just to be clear) the belief in a god itself is delusional, but they are not completely beyond hope if they are not completely resigned to this position.

You contradict yourself. A belief does not exclude the possibility of doubt.

You clearly said belief in God is delusion. All those I know who believe also doubt. They don't fit in your claim.

a reply to: SpaceGoatFarts

Not really.

I believe any belief in a god is delusional. Regardless of doubt, but I do encourage that doubt.

ETA - sorry but I am going to play Don Bradman Cricket (I highly recommend it to any cricket followers out there) for half an hour and then go to bed. I have to get up in the morning and go to work, so this will be my last reply tonight.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

According to that, almost everyone on ATS is delusional for believing in unproved things (conspiracies, paranormal, ...)

I can live with that.


To me delusion is more a sign of mental ailment rather than simply what people choose to believe but eh, what do I know?

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

According to that, almost everyone on ATS is delusional for believing in unproved things

(conspiracies, paranormal, ...)

I can live with that.

Glad we are in agreement (apparently I lied about that last post being my last post)


Can I just say, SpaceGoatFarts that in general I agree with much of what you say. It's only on the issue of theism/atheism that we do in fact part company. And that is fine. Some of my best friends are theists (actually some of them are creationists), but there are more often than not some common ground on which we all agree.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

I did not really say I agree.

Just that you are entitled to your opinion that most people in the world are deluded


And like I said previously, I agree with most you say. Just to me delusion has a negative connotation and prevents people from having a normal life in society, so I would use it more lightly.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts


I refer to the fundamentalists who believe the earth is 6000 years old as deluded, because it's what they are, on top of being judgemental and attacking anyone thinking differently. Not religious people in general. I'm not even an atheist or an agnostic actually.

This...is called hypocrisy

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Quote the Bible where it says the earth is 6000 years old.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

I did not really say I agree.

Just that you are entitled to your opinion that most people in the world are deluded

And like I said previously, I agree with most you say. Just to me delusion has a negative connotation and prevents people from having a normal life in society, so I would use it more lightly.

Delusion isn't all that uncommon. And by saying someone is deluded I am in no way implying they are mentally unfit or anything.

Many people live their whole lives operating under some false assumptions, or taking hearsay as granted, which lead to false or what I would call delusional beliefs.

It's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. I myself used to believe certain things growing up, based upon what others had told me, which turned out to be untrue. It was only after learning new (and more evidence based) information that I was able to re-evaluate my position on such matters.

As such, I would not categorize delusion as merely pathological in nature.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Just in case you already forgot what I posted before. I'm fine with you making your own definition but it doesn't mean it's shared

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness

i feel so bad for the poor widdle atheists that here is a robot singing "Cry me a River"

www.youtube.com...