Not One More !

a reply to: voyger2

You have no compassion whatsoever for the Outcry from this father at the OP, and neither for the next ones, that could be YOU.

I'll say this for you, my friend. Your heart is most assuredly in the right place. ...and it would indeed be a wonderful thing if the world could be like the one you envision. Maybe someday it will be, but not today, or even tomorrow .

But, unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in. In this world, there are people in it who are crazy, sick, or both. Or just plain evil. ...and good people need a way to defend themselves from them. Guns are the weapon of choice for most.

I'm a middle aged man who's been around the block a few times. I've the scars to prove it. I've been up close and personal with people with knives, clubs, and assorted other odds and ends... Should it ever come to pass again that I'm in such a situation again? I'd just as soon have a tool that will enable me to maintain distance, or even intimidate them enough that no one will get hurt.

It is the DARKNESS in human beings that needs to stop.. simple as that. Get to the ROOT of the problem in America.. what is causing suffering and madness? THIS is what needs to be found and removed. The root cause.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

a reply to: therealone717

What's the problem?

I think it's probably plural, as in problem(s)...

Theres 1.05 guns for every American citizen it doesn't matter what you do there will always be guns for nutcases its just a part of living in the US and it will never change.

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: DeadSeraph

You should ask yourself, why do I even need to use a gun?

Pause ...

People leave in fear and because of that more fear they create around them.

Pause again please...

Listen to this fathers voice. Really listen to him. Do you believe in him? ... Do you recognize the truth on his voice?

I'm a little guy from a little country, that doesn't understand how can people live safely, when everyone on the street can have gun and start shooting, just because...

You should ask again, why do you even need a gun?

Maybe you have the luxury of living where there are no threats to your life, I do not, millions upon millions of Americans do not.

You talk about this father loosing his son, you fake concern and play on emotions, what about the life of my family, my children if their lives are threatened? You just don't care about them? As someone who had a potentially dangerous situation quashed due to a friend's concealed carry, as well as due to having a family member who defended their home from intruders with a old ruger 10/22, I'm going to keep my guns thank you, and defend anyone else who makes that choice and behaves responsibly with them.

Accidents happen. Nothing is ever going to stop that, ever. There are bad people, they will always be there, always. What you propose does nothing other than remove the ability of the common person to defend themselves when their life is on the line.

Me keeping guns in my home is NOT the cause of this man's loss. You falsely paint the picture as if it were so. It isn't. You are being dishonest, and in your dishonesty you attack good people who simply want to live their lives, be left alone, and defend themselves from the threats of life with everything they have.

You say you aren't from America, then why would you think you'd have any idea about the true nature of guns in America? Many Americans who live under these laws are fooled by media spin, you think it's better because you are overseas? Your governments and media spin the stories just the same, about crazy violent Americans and their guns. It's simply a lie you bought into.

I've never talked to a single person like you yet who is actually educated about guns in America. You go on so loudly proclaiming all these facts about guns in America, well it's time to put up or shut up. What do you know?

Do you know that fully-automatic weapons are NOT common by ANY means in America. There are very very few around, and that number will never go up, only down, as the current stock of full-auto guns is left over from being grandfathered in. Starting price for your bottom of the barrel full autos is near 10 grand. Few people can afford that. To purchase a fully automatic weapon to need to go through extensive background checks, applications, licensing, etc.

Do you know that up until relatively recently all manner of guns could be purchased through mail order catalogs? You could have actual off-the-battlefield guns, not just small arms either.

Do you know up until recently kids would bring their rifles to school WAY more than now. But instead of shooting up the place, they were meeting for their gun club? High school parking lots with cars displaying shotguns and rifles. No mass shootings. Responsible use.

Do you know that the laws that control guns are largely based on how they LOOK, not how they actually function or what they are actually capable of? Did you know there are strict regulations on barrel lengths, types of grips, etc?

Did you know that the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) which went into effect under clinton banned guns that basically looked scary. The stuff now being called assault weapons. Did you know that under Bush this ban was allowed to expire?

Did you know that anti-gun zealots were crying about how the streets would run red with blood? About how America was going to come crashing down because the ban expired. Did you know after it expired, which allowed Americans to own MORE types and variety of guns, gun violence continued to FALL.

Did you know a "gunshow loophole" is a totally fake, nonexistent thing where anti-gun zealots claim felons can buy guns without any checks because it's a gun show. It's lies and tricks. Did you know every legal vendor at a gun show needs to do every check that any store would do, which means a background check, which can cause a denial for stuff as trivial as open victimless misdemeanors, causing you to wait a few weeks until the detailed check clears?

A normal person can sell a gun to another normal person in this country without having to do a background check. It doesn't matter if we are in a home, standing on the street, or in a gun show, private sales don't need background checks, but that has nothing to do with a gun show.

Did you know gun owners and proponents have been begging to access to this background check database for private sales, but the government doesn't allow it? That means private gun owners and sellers are trying to be responsible when selling firearms but the government won't allow it.

Did you know in America the cities with the strictest gun laws are also the worst cities for violence and gun crime? Did you know this is because unarmed civilians are much easier to beat, rape, and kill than armed ones, and the criminals know that. Do you?

What do you know if you are in your home with wife and child, the door comes crashing in, home invasion is now in your vocabulary. What do you do? Do you think real life is like the movies and you'll do some crazy chuck norris action moves and defend yourself? Do you think these criminals have any sort of honor about abusing women? You can talk about learning martial arts, or being in shape, these do not matter when it's you against three knife/pipe/bat/gun wielding dudes. To defend yourself against that you would need to dedicate your life to fighting, something completely and totally unreasonable and mostly impossible for people. You want everyone to be an MMA fighter? What about old people? Those in bad health? Small people and women?

Do you know that usually cops clean up the mess, not stop it from happening?

Did you know any of these things? What else do you know about guns in America? Please, please educate and tell us all the way things are!

originally posted by: voyger2
To DarksideOz and tebyen

There are no lost causes.

People who possess guns are tempted to use it. Why did they bought the gun in the first case?
- Fear from others ? What about the Fear of others from you?

Temptation is there, all the time, everyday. Kid's are very likely the more vulnerable ones, to break .. to do something unreflected.. we all have a bad day in our lives, don't we?

But, unreflected thoughts don't even have time to dissipate w/ time or a good night of sleep.. cause, it's always there.. the gun.. every day, at reach, every single moment, you know where to get it ... That shouldn't happen..

The water flows down stream, we know we can't stop her, but we can delay it.

If humans are just horrible creatures who can't help from killing others, as you imply, then why weren't these random mass shootings happening for the last 200 years or so?

Why in China where guns are not part of the culture like here in the US, there is still these crazy acts of recent random mass violence? Guess what they do? They run around and do mass stabbings, hackings, shreddings, throwing boiling oil/water, mass sawings.

To be honest I'd rather be shot than hacked to death. I have far more fear of a group of machete wielding foes than ones with guns.

Now guess what happens in China when these attacks happen? Nothing. Because nobody is armed. Guess what happens in the US? TONS of stories of people stopping crimes and preventing crimes just like these. Are you aware that several of the mass shootings were actually stopped by people who were carrying? Probably not, because your media doesn't tell you that part.

Stop being so easily manipulated by these tricksters.

originally posted by: Jefferton
The American pro-gun advocate is anti-life.

The lives lost mean nothing to them. You can see it by their responses. Cold, disconnected.
The only thing that matters is their rights to play/pose with their toys.

Hope it's worth it.

You are such a wise, enlightened, superior creature, no?

What about lives saved by guns? Do you not care for those? You respond in such a cold, disconnected manner. The only thing that matters to you is the ILLUSION of safety.

You really need to get it in your head that there are REAL people in this world, not poser wannabe hollywood gangsters. The majority of gun owners are real people, not some silly character that you have invented in your mind to carelessly apply to anyone who owns a gun.

People who actually shoot things, like animals so they eat, and people so they don't get killed. You think everyone just plays with guns like toys? You have any idea how many people actually use them for defense? Any idea how many people would likely be dead if they didn't have a gun at their side.

If a person decides to murder another person that is THEIR fault THEIR responsibility. Why don't you want people to take responsibility for their actions?

What is it about self defense you find so awful? Why not commit suicide considering you only live today because of people killed in the past? Because you don't actually care, you just like attacking a made up image of your political enemies. Such a transparent facade you have, sir.

originally posted by: voyger2
The chances of surviving against a guy with a Gun are Very Different from a guy with a Knife!

This kind of comparison (like the peanuts one) is ridiculous!

Only cowards need guns on free and democratic society! People create there own reality. Fear is the most important reality factor in the life of arsenal gun owners.

Again, I say this:
The water flows down stream, we know we can't stop her, but we can delay it.

People create their own reality? So if someone breaks into your home, that was some sort of magic summoning of criminals? Are you actually reading the stuff you type before submitting it?

Why do cops have guns? Why does the military have guns? Why do rich people and famous people get special rules so they can have guns? Yet the normal little people for some reason don't deserve the ability to defend themselves in your perfect wonder world. You'd fit right in with medieval lords and knights that thought a peasant doesn't have the right of self defense, and were not allowed weapons either.

You call gun owners cowards. What about you? What are you scared of?

Us gun owners ARE scared, we are scared of CRIMINALS. Just like we are scared of fire, so we have insurance on our houses. Just like you don't run around in constant fear of a house fire, we don't run around in constant fear of criminals. But we recognize they are out there, it's a possibility I'll cross paths with one, so it's a good idea to have an insurance policy.

So are we cowards for being afraid of home invasions? I guess that's personal opinion.

But let's examine what you are scared of. You want to disarm everyone. You are scared of EVERYONE. We are scared of just the criminals, you are scared of every one of your fellow people, scared of what THEY might do with a gun.

So who is the real coward? Someone who is only afraid of criminals, or someone afraid of the entire population? I guess that's a matter of person opinion once again...

Voyager2,

I'm not trying to pick on you. I understand where you are coming from. I only ask you examine your thought process a little closer.

You see something horrible happen, the loss of innocent life, you feel sad and angry like any normal person does. When something bad happens, and we are saddened and angered, the first thing we usually do is find someone to blame. So either on your own, or through prompting from news stories, you place the blame not on the person who committed the crime, but on gun owners and gun rights proponents.

That's where your thought process went wrong. Often we don't thing straight when angry and sad, it's understandable. Gun owners and gun rights proponents are not the ones at fault, they are not to blame. They are normal people who want the right to defend themselves. They have seen the things life can throw at you, and they want to be able to throw back.

We aren't monsters, we aren't lovers of violence, we don't like killing, we don't want to kill. We simply refuse to surrender our right to defend ourselves. Something every person on this planet has the right to do. We are your allies, not your opponents. We are the ones stopping crimes, stopping murders, and acting as a built-in deterrent in the minds of criminals too. We want to defend the weak and uphold justice, not attack the defenseless and degrade their names.

originally posted by: voyger2
you claim a fight against terrorists... and even now you are creating your own, your children aren't free... senseless rules and regulations are all over the place at schools... kids and teachers leave in fear... and why you ask? of course, its because of knifes!

all this bs comments from you guys even with personal attack, makes most of you cowards who need guns to defend them selfs ... some even say is for recreation.. killing animals... cowards I say!

Inside Terrorism, from your own will make you all eat your words..

You have no compassion whatsoever for the Outcry from this father at the OP, and neither for the next ones, that could be YOU.

I suppose you don't eat meat? Most hunters do so for food not sport. All the gun owners I know don't support trophy hunting at all, although unfortunately many still do. American gun owners are hardly unique in that respect, most other countries that hate guns still don't see a problem with going to Africa and killing endangered animals. There are #ty people, stop casting all gun owners in the light of the few. It's no different than racist idiots claiming all blacks are criminal gangsters because some of them are.

You keep talking about kids in fear, we all want to solve that. What you propose WILL NOT WORK, PERIOD.

If there is a person dying from dehydration and you keep yelling "HE NEEDS WATER GIVE HIM SOME SEA WATER" "PLEASE HAVE COMPASSION FEED HIM SEA WATER" what are you doing? What you are suggesting will NOT WORK, sea water cannot be drank, be realistic and accept that it WILL NOT WORK so you need to find another way to solve the problem. You are in fact the one with no compassion because you refuse to even get on the path of solving the problem, you are stuck on a dead end and won't turn around. That's not helping anything.

a reply to: manna2

Why reply to me?Im confused. I was posting to the OP
I cant tell if you are agreeing or insulting me lol.

originally posted by: voyger2

originally posted by: seagull
Those who would sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither.- Benjamin Franklin.

Correction.
Those who need a gun to claim the right of freedom or security, deserve neither.

Hiding behind a gun or gun rights don't solve problems, it creates more.
Take a look at the freedom of your children at schools. They are becoming robots. And why? because of knifes rights, of course.

You have posted over and over and refuse to address the questions being asked of you by members in this thread. That is incredibly rude, if you start a thread you should give the people who reply the respect of responding to their REPEATED and fundamental questions.

You say guns should be taken away. Answer this: What does a person do when they are in their home, and someone breaks in? If you want to look at charts of police wait time around the country I'll post them for you, but the short of it is this: pretty much anywhere the police will NOT get there fast enough to stop someone from killing you if that is their goal.

Are you OK with dooming thousands, tens of thousands, dooming all these unknown people to getting raped, robbed, beaten, killed because they did NOT have a firearm to defend themselves? That is the reality of the situation. There are HUGE numbers of cases in the US of people stopping robberies, rapes, murders, etc with their legal firearms. Real, authentic cases. If you had your way, none of those people would have had guns. Are you OK with that?

Would you go up to that person and say "I'm sorry, but you need to get raped because nobody should have guns" Would you do that? Because taking away guns in fact will cause that to happen. Maybe you haven't thought of that before.

When I have a gun in my house, it has absolutely no connection to a person who murders someone with their gun.

When you take away someone's gun, and they are defenseless, you have a DIRECT connection to the crime that takes place because of it. You are the one personally who has intervened and effected the outcome. Me owning a gun is not personally intervening and causing ANY murders or ANY crimes. I really ask you to think about that, and the implications of what you suggest.

That's the difference.

originally posted by: therealone717
It is the DARKNESS in human beings that needs to stop.. simple as that. Get to the ROOT of the problem in America.. what is causing suffering and madness? THIS is what needs to be found and removed. The root cause.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

That's too hard. Too much work. Too uncomfortable. Too scary. Facing the root cause of problems is something humans have proven throughout history they are TERRIBLE at.

Which is why people like the OP prefer to take mental shortcuts which lead them in false directions, ultimately harming the people they claim to care about, and alienating good strong allies in the process.

We are a pretty ridiculous lot, no?

a reply to: James1982

6500 soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001
100 000 Americans have been killed with guns since 2001.
Guns are used in self defence .83 percent of the time in violent crimes
only 11 per cent of Americans hunt.

Your argument is a paradigm of somewhere that is long gone

a reply to: voyger2>>> Meanwhile the federal government is going hog wild buying millions of rounds of ammo and thousands of assault rifles and high capacity magazine pistols and supplying law enforcement with armored personnel vehicles and advanced surveillance equipment and eroding existing civil rights. And we're supposed to give up our only right that lets us keep the other ones? I'm sorry, not going to happen. Not without a fight, any way.
WTH does the FDA and post office need assault rifles for, anyway?
I own a firearm for personal security. I think of it as a fire extinguisher for that purpose. You hope never to have to use it but if you need to use it, you're in trouble if you don't have one. But I like shooting firearms and would have a dozen if I could afford them. But they're expensive and now shooting them is more expensive with the engineered ammo shortage and price spikes the ammo companies have created. BTW, look into who owns the top producing ammo companies as well as some firearm manufacturers. The Cerberus Corporation. Nice name, very apt. And then look into who owns it and you might be surprised.
I feel for the slain victim's dad. But he's wrong on this. Had he railed against the local police, the drug and mental health industry, Hollywood sex and violence or an ever increasing social decay leading to evil, the media would have ignored him.

originally posted by: g146541
a reply to: voyger2
Yawwn....
WE GOT ANOTHER ONE...
Lemme splain to you.
If we take away all of the inanimate objects people use to kill, you would not be able to have your trinkets and baubles.
Cars kill more EVERYWHERE, do we wanna ban them?
It is not the item but the evil human that needs to be "fixed".

If we were serious we would tackle the biggies first long before banning gun which account to a very low number.

Let's start with max speed limit if 25 across the US and if you get a ticket for speeding a life time driving ban should be handed out.

What? A little to in convienant to save 5 times those killed with guns? Hmmm

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: James1982

6500 soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001
100 000 Americans have been killed with guns since 2001.
Guns are used in self defence .83 percent of the time in violent crimes
only 11 per cent of Americans hunt.

Your argument is a paradigm of somewhere that is long gone

11% of Americans hunt? That's over 30 MILLION people. So, to 30 million people, you just say "too bad"

I'm not sure what numbers of dead in Afghanistan have to do with this conversation? Was that a non-sequitur? Are you suggesting America go around the world disarming other populations as well, or are you simply showing that when a country gets invaded people tend to get shot?

"Guns are used in self defence .83 percent of the time in violent crimes "

I'd like to see a source as that's a totally meaningless statement without knowing how they decided to calculate everything. Does that mean in cases of violent crimes reported, a little less than 1% included a person firing a gun at the criminal? That number will still be very, very high. To all those people you say "too bad" ? What about cases where a gun wasn't fired, but the gun deterred the crime from happening? Is that included in your stat? See why we need links to sources? Because stats like that, without knowing how they were reached, mean nothing.

You say 100,000 dead from guns since 2001? Source please. It better be detailed. Does that include all the people the police have shot dead? Because that's a huge number. Does it include the number of criminals shot dead by victims/almost victims? Because that number isn't insignificant. Does that number take into account suicides? Accidents? So my right to self defense is void because other people have accidents? Because people decide to end their own lives? Because cops kill so many people? Because criminals and gangs kill so many people? Most of those sound like reasons to KEEP my guns, not give them up, so I think that's what I'll do.

Take your fast tricks somewhere else it's not going to fly here or with me. Your argument is just straight up baseless. My paradigm is still good for at least 30 MILLION people + according to your own stats.

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: James1982

6500 soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001
100 000 Americans have been killed with guns since 2001.
Guns are used in self defence .83 percent of the time in violent crimes
only 11 per cent of Americans hunt.

Your argument is a paradigm of somewhere that is long gone

For your consideration this article:

takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com...

It's hard to get concrete numbers because you can slant studies and interpret information different ways to promote a certain goal.

The article, on the NYtimes which is known to be anti-gun, cites a paper (from anti-gun group) that shows about 70,000 cases per year on average of people stopping crimes with guns. Seventy Thousand. The article also talks about how the NRA cites papes which claim into the millions. Both sides are biased, both are exaggerating in the direction they prefer. Additionally not all cases of guns stopping crimes are reported. As I've mentioned I experienced a situation where a friend's carry firearm was able to deter an attack on us. It was not reported, it won't show up in numbers, but it happened. The other case of a family member defending their house however was reported, and will show up in those numbers.

So the truth is, there IS a very significant number of people saved, and criminals stopped because of lawful gun owners ever year. There are also the longer reaching effects, such as that a criminal that gets killed won't be able to go on and commit further crimes. That means additional reduction in crime that doesn't show up on the numbers for that. There is also the deterrent factor, currently it's known that many people are armed. That's a risk for an attacker. Crimes don't happen because of that deterrent, but that doesn't show up on numbers either.

It comes down to YOU making the choice to stop a person from defending themselves by advocating against guns. Compared to the perpetrator making the choice to commit a crime, not me, when I own a gun. In other words, if you had your way, you personally would be responsible for at the very least 70,000 additional victims per yer. Directly responsible by removing their ability to defend themselves. I have my way, I own guns, that does not directly cause other people to kill other people.

khnum

6500 soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001
100 000 Americans have been killed with guns since 2001.

So what you are saying is that soldiers had 6 times the death rate in Afghanistan than people killed by guns in America. Not sure the correlation you are trying determined here though other than to suggest that the bigger number is worst without adding that is about 8000 out of 310000000 people per year. Where the war was about an average of 500 out of 200000 soldiers per year, a much worst scenario.

Also your .83 is in question when one sees that there has been 3300 total reported crimes per 100000 for 2012, so you are saying that guns stop 82000 crimes per year.

Funny how your anti-gun numbers really play out,

a reply to: James1982

There is to many replies and even personal attacks to me that doesn't give me the chance to reply. Well i'm sorry for that.

I think that you guys are so deep in the mud of gun laws / gun rights and these days even more in terrorist attacks, that you forget that you can live free of fear.

This is just my opinion, from a outsider, of course. I'm not saying I'm better than you.

What I've stated (w/out personal attacks) is that You Guys have the power to change and stop these nut case incidents from happening, if you take Guns out of the streets. That's a fight for your country IMO. That's a fight for your true freedom.

I believe this is the truth. We should not need firearms to defend ourselves in a free country. Laws for people and Guns for wars.

And guys, calm down don't get nervous with lies or stupid arguments, get nervous w/ the truth that makes you feel uncomfortable.