The Truth About Consciousness. Based On Science.

a reply to: xicor

very well said, sadly, some people will fail to understand just how profound it was. you are correct. it is difficult to word such experience (and for a brainmind to understand those wordsideas) if fixed on the rigidity of words.

originally posted by: Onboard2

LOL, separation is a creation of the mind. You are correct there, but your post is a contradiction to me. I do believe science and spirituality or metaphysics will merge...mark my words! You also mention 'awareness' , in which you are lacking. No offense, but you've had no experiences of the metaphysical or consciousness outside of the body, because you are not open to it.

Don't presume to know what I've experienced. Because like most assumptions that turn into beliefs, you run a strong risk of being wrong. The fact is, I used to actively lucid dream, and have had more than one OBE. I even had a very hyper-real seeming, alien gray looking, hyper-being, demon creature come into my room and do something that I can't even describe seeming to defy known physics. And on another occasion, the most beautiful creature, human-like in appearance, but definitely not human, slowly revealed herself to me as she faded in to my minds eye. The more she faded in, the more I was becoming aware that me seeing her is too much to handle. If she revealed any more of herself, in her majesty, beauty, and aliveness to me, I would die. A welcoming death. With that realization, she disappeared. These things happened to me because I wanted them to. I was open to it.

But, as I grew up a little, and became more educated, I realized that they could have very well been a hallucination. I came to the conclusion that there's no good use believing in things you can't prove. Doing so is being dishonest with yourself and allowing yourself to be susceptible to delusions which will disconnect you from reality and can be very damaging to your psyche as well as jeopardize your integrity. Was it a hallucination? I don't know. As profound as it was and as much as I wish it was true, I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know. Its better to not accept something as true unless you know its true, imo.



And you are right. Metaphysics and Science may merge, but it will be by virtue of the scientific method, not the other way around. And if they merge, Metaphysical concepts will become science. Science won't become metaphysics. And after they merge, science will carry on being science and metaphysics will cease to exist.

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: smithjustinb

try to think of things that don't fit a narrow fixed and rigid scientific margin as already reached its completion.

If this were true, there wouldn't be contradicting philosophies.

"I am, what I am and that's all that I am" ~Popeye the sailor man

and Im here because Im not somewhere else

originally posted by: smithjustinb
a reply to: xicor

If it weren't for a thing called delusions, people's personal experiences could be trusted. Unfortunately, sometimes our personal beliefs don't correspond to reality, especially when not based on a solid foundation of things proven, but based on a foundation of other personal experiences. Math is different. It never lies and it can be trusted. Science interprets data wrong sometimes, but the good thing is, as more data is gathered, the interpretations get corrected. So, it is progressing towards a destination of a complete truth that all can agree on. Whereas philosophies and metaphysics have been around for a long time and haven't changed much over time. They aren't going anywhere and they aren't progressing towards a destination of a complete version of truth that we can all agree on. So they can't really be classified as knowledge, as you can never really know. Only believe.

Premonitions can be proven, if they happen. Timelines must exist or this would not be so. I believe I am referring to 'probabilites'. If you take a look around the world and see the effects of circumstances and events, we have some idea of what could happen or the next catastrophe looming 'over' our heads.

I don't know how the Theory of Relativity can yet be proved, because the movement between two objects is still dependent on the perpective of the observer and now light is not a constant? Maybe it's all based on math, but take away a solid foundation and what then is the medium?

Only believe, right. You'd think in this day and age we'd know so much more. Sometimes when I read some of Stephen Hawkings theories, I wonder if we are still in the dark ages. Maybe it's because so much energy goes into war instead. We still have rockets based on explosion.

ANd also, where's the link? Still waiting on bigfoot.

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: smithjustinb

try to think of things that don't fit a narrow fixed and rigid scientific margin as already reached its completion.

If this were true, there wouldn't be contradicting philosophies.

of course there woukd. there is nothing but opposites.

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: Onboard2

LOL, separation is a creation of the mind. You are correct there, but your post is a contradiction to me. I do believe science and spirituality or metaphysics will merge...mark my words! You also mention 'awareness' , in which you are lacking. No offense, but you've had no experiences of the metaphysical or consciousness outside of the body, because you are not open to it.

Don't presume to know what I've experienced. Because like most assumptions that turn into beliefs, you run a strong risk of being wrong. The fact is, I used to actively lucid dream, and have had more than one OBE. I even had a very hyper-real seeming, alien gray looking, hyper-being, demon creature come into my room and do something that I can't even describe seeming to defy known physics. And on another occasion, the most beautiful creature, human-like in appearance, but definitely not human, slowly revealed herself to me as she faded in to my minds eye. The more she faded in, the more I was becoming aware that me seeing her is too much to handle. If she revealed any more of herself, in her majesty, beauty, and aliveness to me, I would die. A welcoming death. With that realization, she disappeared. These things happened to me because I wanted them to. I was open to it.

But, as I grew up a little, and became more educated, I realized that they could have very well been a hallucination. I came to the conclusion that there's no good use believing in things you can't prove. Doing so is being dishonest with yourself and allowing yourself to be susceptible to delusions which will disconnect you from reality and can be very damaging to your psyche as well as jeopardize your integrity. Was it a hallucination? I don't know. As profound as it was and as much as I wish it was true, I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know. Its better to not accept something as true unless you know its true, imo.


And you are right. Metaphysics and Science may merge, but it will be by virtue of the scientific method, not the other way around. And if they merge, Metaphysical concepts will become science. Science won't become metaphysics. And after they merge, science will carry on being science and metaphysics will cease to exist.

Presume? You made a statement that consciousness does NOT reside outside of the body. So, I didn't presume and I absolutely agree with your last paragraph. Metaphysical will cease to be occult through science.

Adding more: Okay, I did presume you were not open to experiences. I have had many.

a reply to: smithjustinb

But, as I grew up a little, and became more educated, I realized that they could have very well been a hallucination. I came to the conclusion that there's no good use believing in things you can't prove.


that was your big mistake. you closed yourself off and went into denial and believed in education.

originally posted by: taoistguy

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: smithjustinb

try to think of things that don't fit a narrow fixed and rigid scientific margin as already reached its completion.

If this were true, there wouldn't be contradicting philosophies.

of course there woukd. there is nothing but opposites.

Are you sure? You know that's dualistic, lol. Stephen Hawking says dark holes are made up of light.

Correction: I think I remember Hawking saying that black holes were made up of light once when he almost died of pheumonia, but now he says black holes really don't exist. Eventually they vanish.

a reply to: Onboard2

there are opposites...goodbad, updown, inout, etc. but they are just sides of the coin. the real reality is the coin itself that balances and harmonises them.

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: Onboard2

there are opposites...good\bad, up\down, in\out, etc. but they are just sides of the coin. the real reality is the coin itself that balances and harmonided them.

I understand why you say that, but I don't have your philosophy.

originally posted by: Onboard2

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: Onboard2

there are opposites...good\bad, up\down, in\out, etc. but they are just sides of the coin. the real reality is the coin itself that balances and harmonided them.

I understand why you say that, but I don't have your philosophy.

you don't believe in opposites?

originally posted by: taoistguy

originally posted by: Onboard2

originally posted by: taoistguy
a reply to: Onboard2

there are opposites...good\bad, up\down, in\out, etc. but they are just sides of the coin. the real reality is the coin itself that balances and harmonided them.

I understand why you say that, but I don't have your philosophy.

Not anymore. Just as I don't believe in good and evil. For something to be good or evil, you'd have to judge it as being one or the other and we learn from our experiences. This is so hard for people to understand, because they don't see the big picture. People also judge their every thought.
you don't believe in opposites?

a reply to: Onboard2

Hawking can't make his mind up.

a reply to: Onboard2

ah, i see what you mean. yes, they are arbitrary., i think we are saying the same thing.

but then again, the coin can't exist without them...it's complicated...(not) lol

a reply to: taoistguy

LOL

originally posted by: knoledgeispower
(snip)

So you don't believe in alternate realities/dimensions? Our souls could have been in a different plane of existence & then when our bodies were ready, we slipped into this existence?

Alternate dimensions can be of science & physics because again, we hardly know squat about science & physics.

That's what's so interesting about this stuff. I've been preaching about it since I read some of the work of Max Tegmark arxiv.org... He talks about consciousness as a "state of matter", but this work is quantum to the core. There's some relevant ideas about mind (memory, cognition, etc) as being explorable in terms of classical physical states, but the really juicy ideas floating around right now look at consciousness actually as a state of information. Information, that intangible stuff which lets us make sense of the computer age and the quantum. That reveals a deeper universe to us than purely material ideas will allow.

Information has qualities physical matter doesn't have. For instance, a piece of information could exist here, and in an instant it could emerge on the other side of the universe. It could jump to parallel universes, a possibility which doesn't exist for a large piece of physical material. A piece of information just needs a physical system to be correlated with it to exist anywhere. It can exist in many places it once, information follows its own rules.

The idea that we at the level of our spirits are information, opens up all kinds of amazing doors and possibilities.

a reply to: tridentblue

yes, but we do not live in a computer or a matrix. this is all very real. consciousness is a state of matter, but matter is a state of consciousness.

originally posted by: g0dhims3lf
"I am, what I am and that's all that I am" ~Popeye the sailor man

and Im here because Im not somewhere else

The point I'm trying to make in this thread is that what you're saying is true. It is because you are your body and because you are an individual that makes it possible that you can also be other bodies and other individuals. Because bodies and minds are everywhere.

a reply to: smithjustinb

I misunderstood. If that's the case I do agree. I feel that even the atoms are our brothers/sisters.