Jesus made the law even more difficult.

skorpion

what jesus was saying was that the laws of the god of this world (who is not the father god) were designed to be impossible for humans to keep. the god of this world, is the accuser. who is the accuser? satan. jesus wanted us to know, that the owner of this planet (who if you'll recall, tried to give the planet to jesus in exchange for his servitude) was keeping us behind prison bars of impossible laws, that even the god of this world didn't follow and in fact, frequently did the exact opposite. in the past, this has been overlooked because he's defined as god in the same voice as the father god, but part of his description is frequently missing. this lack of clarification leads people to believe that god is the only one who is allowed to not follow his own laws, but that's an excuse to not address who the god of this world is in scripture.

paul tried to address this by pointing out that not only is the law the accuser, the law is what keeps humans from heaven. think of it like a divine courtroom. you have a judge (father god), a prosecuting attorney (satan) and a defense attorney (jesus). the prosecuting attorney is hardcore racist. he hates human beings. the defense attorney created humans, and loves them. jesus decided that since the prosecuting attorney was deliberately making planetary laws for humans to follow that he could then use to accuse them of breaking in the divine court, that there was no way any humans would ever pass the muster. so jesus came as a human and, following divine law, won the planet in a legal battle. however, if you want him to represent you in the divine court, you actually have to ask him to.

a reply to: undo

Nice...

I don't believe Satan exists but that's a nifty way of looking at it

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: undo

Nice...

I don't believe Satan exists but that's a nifty way of looking at it

thanks, i think it fits the overall message of jesus and is further supported by the occassional comment from paul.

btw,

satan=EN.LIL
jesus=EN.KI
father god=ANU

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: ctopuil
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Master Jesus never said it was easy. The True path of the Spirit is surely difficult, .

Yes. Just by looking at Jesus' commands, it becomes obvious that things are going to be difficult. Yet christians claim that christianity is some easy way for salvation. I've seen tracts saying how simply confessing jesus died for sin erases ones sins. If salvation was indeed that easy then that high moral standards set by Jesus serves no actual purpose. it allows a christian to live a life of sin to still be saved because he declares Jesus died for his sins. Its like 'sin all you want and send the bills to Jesus'.

Ok. So, here's a theological question related to this: why? Why does it need to be difficult? Doesn't God want people to be saved and enter the Kingdom Of Heaven? Surely you'd think he'd make it as easy as he could for human beings to avoid an eternity of hellfire and damnation? After all, the cost has already been paid. It was paid by Jesus. If it wasn't, then what on Earth was the point of him dying on the cross for our sins in the first place?

Do you think God was sitting there just after Jesus was crucified, thinking: "Well, that's done. Jesus has died to save my people. Good... Hmmm... Oh wait, that's far too easy... What was I thinking!? I need to make this a lot harder... I know... I'll make it so people can't get into heaven unless they follow all those weird as $*%! laws in Leviticus to the letter."

And yes, it DOES allow for a life of sin, that was the very point of Jesus' death. So long as a person believes in Jesus and knows how to ask him for forgiveness, then he will forgive them.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17.

"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"" John 11:25-26.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Sounds to me like the same teaching rehashed.

Men are told to 'lower the gaze' around women and modesty is stressed upon. But also teaches that adultery is wen the act is actually commited not by merely looking at a woman lustfully,as defined in christianity.

Its amazing what a bit of poking around can reveal. My Muslim lady friends are quite right, Islam teaches that adultery starts with a gaze. Same teaching, different way of putting it. Now you deny the faith teaching you promote as superior to Christianity....

The gaze is part of a Muslim's character

A Muslim is decent and pure. This means all of his or her body must be decent and pure. A natural consequence of this is lowering the gaze.

Allah tells us:

"O you who believe! Do not follow Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will command what is shameful and wrong..." (Quran 24:21).

Looking at another man or woman in an indecent manner is following in Satan's footsteps.

It all begins with a lustful glance. Such a glance leads to lustful talk and flirting, then meeting…and we are all aware of what comes next.

Let us stop Satan in his tracks and lower our gaze.

Let us start today, during these hot summer months. Yes, it is very difficult and it takes discipline and faith.

Yet, whenever we struggle to please Allah, He will reward us several times over in this life and the next.

It is truly a Jihad. But, it is a Jihad worth undertaking, and we will be all the better for it.

source

Ps for the Christian reader this is a fascinating look into the mindset of Muslims. While some of what this Doctor says rings true in Christian morality standards, it takes morality to an absolute extreme. I mean, it says because Muslim people come from the desert, there is no excuse for a man swimming with no shirt and a woman wearing a bikini. Lolz.

a reply to: markosity1973

O you who believe! Do not follow Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will command what is shameful and wrong..."

Wouldn't this mean, if one follows Satan... said person will tell people what is "evil"

As opposed to letting people figure it out for themselves?

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Its amazing what a bit of poking around can reveal. Islam teaches that adultery starts with a gaze. Same teaching, different way of putting it. .

its revealed that Theres a big difference. Islam says a lustful gaze opens the door to adultery. Christiainity teaches a lustful gaze is by itself adultery. So christians are guilty of adultery everytime they gaze. Its best if they follow the muslim advice to 'lower the gaze'.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
its revealed that Theres a big difference. Islam says a lustful gaze opens the door to adultery. Christiainity teaches a lustful gaze is by itself adultery. So christians are guilty of adultery everytime they gaze. Its best if they follow the muslim advice to 'lower the gaze'.

Nope. Its just the same. Jesus says that a lustful gaze means you've committed adultery in your heart. Islam teaches that a lustful gaze leads to sex if it isn't stopped.


The outcome of both teachings is physical adultery. Jesus was far more clear when he said if you think it, you might as we have done it. Islam is more cryptic but says if you even see it, you're on the path to adultery too.

Your argument that Jesus made things more complicated falls over right about now because your islamic teachings require just as much interpretation and are just as strict.

I know as a Christian I'm not advised to stay away from the beach or parks on a hot day. I'm just taught to be careful what I think when I see half naked people, which btw is nothing special because I'm accustomed to seeing having been desensitised to being brought up around it.

8BitOperator Why does it need to be difficult? Doesn't God want people to be saved and enter the Kingdom Of Heaven? Surely you'd think he'd make it as easy as he could for human beings to avoid an eternity of hellfire and damnation? After all, the cost has already been paid. It was paid by Jesus. If it wasn't, then what on Earth was the point of him dying on the cross for our sins in the first place?

Do you think God was sitting there just after Jesus was crucified, thinking: "Well, that's done. Jesus has died to save my people. Good... Hmmm... Oh wait, that's far too easy... What was I thinking!? I need to make this a lot harder... I know... I'll make it so people can't get into heaven unless they follow all those weird as $*%! laws in Leviticus to the letter."

And yes, it DOES allow for a life of sin, that was the very point of Jesus' death .

im not even talking about levitical laws, im talking about the standards set by Jesus.. To turn the other cheek, to love enemies, to walk an extra mile, to not feel anger, etc. If christians are going to ignore these commadments and not live up to these standards and if just believing jesus died for sins why did jesus even waste his breath giving those commandments? Did he say all those those things and go 'if you cant do those things, no problem just confess i died for you and you are set'. Commandments are meant to be followed.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
its revealed that Theres a big difference. Islam says a lustful gaze opens the door to adultery. Christiainity teaches a lustful gaze is by itself adultery. So christians are guilty of adultery everytime they gaze. Its best if they follow the muslim advice to 'lower the gaze'.

Nope. Its just the same. Jesus says that a lustful gaze means you've committed adultery in your heart. Islam teaches that a lustful gaze leads to sex if it isn't stopped.


The outcome of both teachings is physical adultery.

Jesus didnt say gazing at a girl leads to adultery, he said gazing IS adultery. Islam says a gaze is a gaze and adultery is adultery. Its like christianity declares someone a thief for merely thinking about stealing cash, islam declares someone a thief AFTER he has stolen it. That is the difference.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Jesus didnt say gazing at a girl leads to adultery, he said gazing IS adultery. Islam says a gaze is a gaze and adultery is adultery. Its like christianity declares someone a thief for merely thinking about stealing cash, islam declares someone a thief AFTER he has stolen it. That is the difference.

Now you are trying to tell me black is white.

All sin starts with a state of mind. Jesus makes that perfectly clear and that's what is meant when he said that. Fantasising about sex with someone other than your partner is a sin. Duh.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Jesus didnt say gazing at a girl leads to adultery, he said gazing IS adultery. Islam says a gaze is a gaze and adultery is adultery. Its like christianity declares someone a thief for merely thinking about stealing cash, islam declares someone a thief AFTER he has stolen it. That is the difference.

Now you are trying to tell me black is white.

All sin starts with a state of mind. Jesus makes that perfectly clear and that's what is meant when he said that. Fantasising about sex with someone other than your partner is a sin. Duh.

while lustful thoughts are sin, a gaze is not the same as the act. christians are condemned as adulterers for just gazing lustfuly. Islam offers the advice to simply lower the gaze.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Ahem, Matthew 5:28 says;

I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Eyes can't lust, but the heart which is fed information via our five senses can.

*edit* To clarify, Jesus also said this in Matthew 18:9

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

In other words, our 5 senses are the gateway to sin.

You have yet again misunderstood christian teaching. And btw the muslim doctor I quoted earlier says to change the channel if you find a news reporter attractive. Its the same thing.

Case closed.

Probably because I am a woman Scorpion has refused to entertain 99% of my posts. He only responded to my query that I thought he had abandoned the post and then ridiculed me. All my thoughtful posts he ignored summarily.

I thought it over last night and decided to give one more post.

I'd rather do my best to: turn the other cheek
rather than: exact and eye for an eye, even in an accident

I'd rather do my best to: love my enemies
rather than: have my God tell me to murder in his name

I'd rather do my best to: not feel anger
rather than: have my religious leaders encourage anger

I'd rather do my best to: honor children
rather than: have my religious leaders say it is ok to give a child "in marriage" to a man (I am a professor of Human Development and know that until the age of 16 a female child's vagina is not fully developed, and great internal damage and even death can occur to 9-12 year olds who are "married"

I'd rather be in a religion that says in Christ there is no male or female, that means male and female are equal
Rather than in a religion whose religious leaders condone beating females

I'd rather be in a religion that says do not kill
rather than: have my religious leaders say it is ok to beat or even kill my children if they disobey

I know you will say I am wrong, but that is the fruit of Islam that the world sees and you yourself have ridiculed these "commands" of Jesus in this thread as impossible so why try.

Why try? Because I'd rather serve the kind of God Jesus represents.
To be more loving, more kind, more fair, more compassionate, than in a religion that encourages violence, anger, rape, murder in the name of it's God.

I'd rather go to heaven for falling on my knees, acknowledging my sins, asking for forgiveness and trying to sin no more
Than: go to heaven for killing myself along with a bunch of other people - I would not want to be in a heaven with people who are unrepentant mass murders

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
im not even talking about levitical laws, im talking about the standards set by Jesus.. To turn the other cheek, to love enemies, to walk an extra mile, to not feel anger, etc. If christians are going to ignore these commadments and not live up to these standards and if just believing jesus died for sins why did jesus even waste his breath giving those commandments? Did he say all those those things and go 'if you cant do those things, no problem just confess i died for you and you are set'. Commandments are meant to be followed.

I think by calling these things Commandments, you are elevating them to the same status as the Decalogue, which clearly they are not. When I read those passages, I tend to feel that it is Jesus giving friendly advice, so to speak. A set of pretty healthy moral guidelines (but not necessarily a strict rulebook) as to how he felt people should live their lives. To my knowledge, he didn't preface everything he said with: "These are my commands, and you MUST follow them to the letter or be damned." He was well aware of the nature of people, and their free will. In the end, he would forgive their transgressions should they believe in him and ask for his forgiveness.

You people know of course one can not commit adultery without first being married...

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

8BitOperator Why does it need to be difficult? Doesn't God want people to be saved and enter the Kingdom Of Heaven? Surely you'd think he'd make it as easy as he could for human beings to avoid an eternity of hellfire and damnation? After all, the cost has already been paid. It was paid by Jesus. If it wasn't, then what on Earth was the point of him dying on the cross for our sins in the first place?

Do you think God was sitting there just after Jesus was crucified, thinking: "Well, that's done. Jesus has died to save my people. Good... Hmmm... Oh wait, that's far too easy... What was I thinking!? I need to make this a lot harder... I know... I'll make it so people can't get into heaven unless they follow all those weird as $*%! laws in Leviticus to the letter."

And yes, it DOES allow for a life of sin, that was the very point of Jesus' death .

im not even talking about levitical laws, im talking about the standards set by Jesus.. To turn the other cheek, to love enemies, to walk an extra mile, to not feel anger, etc. If christians are going to ignore these commadments and not live up to these standards and if just believing jesus died for sins why did jesus even waste his breath giving those commandments? Did he say all those those things and go 'if you cant do those things, no problem just confess i died for you and you are set'. Commandments are meant to be followed.

During the Levitical age, whenever a commandment was broken, both a confession and a sacrafice was required to atone for the sin. Why would things be different now? Jesus is our permanent sacrafice for unlimited atonememt, and 1 John 1:9 tells us to continually confess our known sins to the Father to remain in fellowship. I take what Jesus said to be on the level of Commandment, but note that commandments have been broken before, and God offered a system for rebounding. While the focus has shifted to Jesus as the Lamb, the principle is still the same.

Jesus did not complicate anything. He simplified the Law with His sacrafice, while preserving the the law of personal responsibility for our own sprititual maturation. The idea of "rebound and keep moving" is the same today as it was in the Levitical Age.

Salvation is by faith alone. Spiritual maturity manifests in good works motivated by faith and alignment with Jesus' law.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Faith alone will not cut it brother...

Read the gospels and ditch paul...

a reply to: Akragon

Faith is all we can offer. Without faith, there is no good work. True faith inevitably produces good works. Therefore, faith alone is the starting point.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Only a Christian would say such ridiculous things...

There are MANY people who have absolutely no belief in God or Jesus, and they still manage to do good works...

Faith alone is not correct... Paul is the only one who said works are like filthy rags... but that's Paul

Jesus did not say Faith alone... He said specifically "many will say lord lord, and he will say I never knew you"

Faith alone is NOT the way...