The Terrible Fear of Paying the Poor Too Much

a reply to: jhn7537

Thanks. I have been lurking for a year or so and finally decided to join the conversation.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

You just aren't getting it. When there are college-educated people having to work for minimum wage because of out-sourcing and off-shoring, how is it the fault of those college-educated people?

Yes, millions of MBA graduates and people that majored in underwater basket weaving are in deed having a hard time finding work. Seems their college produced education isn't worth much in the real world.
Why is it that someone can study on their own for a Cisco Cert in Network Engineering, test for the cert and get a job paying from $40-$60k a year?
Sounds like all these people were not only duped into going to college, but taking huge loans backed by the Fed Govt to get the paper tiger diploma for "Insert Liberal Arts Degree".
It has little to do with outsourcing, on the college side of the house.
Personally, I have numerous certifications in Networking and Telecom. I make a six figure income from that alone.
My business, I perform metal fabrication within a specialized industry. That right now bring myself about $20k a year, and will grow to double in 6 months.
Wonder how this is even doable in the off shoring US you continue to speak about.

And, all without a "college degree".

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
I see mixed messages from you.

Oh, how I love it when some tries to analyze my over the internet, with psychobabble talk and terms.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
You are irate, I get that much.

Yeah, I don't think you do.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
BS abritrary number? It's a fact that it takes a certain amount of income to survive in this country. If people aren't earning enough, which they aren't, the government is stepping in to help them, which means they are subsidizing the humongous corporations that aren't paying enough.

The Govt should not be doing this. My money is being used to offset someones life. That is wrong. Regardless if it is a company or person.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
I see that is not okay with you.
But why is it okay with you that the corporations are getting away with it?

Maybe clean the crap out of your ears/eyes. I have stated numerous times that I don't agree with Corp handouts.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
There are lots and lots of people with educations who are working low-wage jobs just to get by, because their 'career choice' was outsourced to somewhere else.

No, because they chose a career field unwisely.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
Who allowed that? Yeah, the government. It drained our economy, and you can't simply blame the people left behind with no work. The fault is, as you say, with the corporations whose greed and hubris overrides their 'nationalism' or whatever you want to call it.

Again with the subjective Greed thing.
The company has the freedom to do so.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
And the way they did that? BY BUYING CONGRESS.
[/quote
Yes, a corrupt Fed Govt.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
How is it the workers' fault that their jobs were outsourced?

It isn't their fault, but it is their responsibility to find new employment or a new career field.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
That cheaper labor was found, and they were 'made redundant'? What do you expect THEM to do to survive?
Or do you even care?

Do I care? Sure, as a human I care. But caring does not equate to money being given.
I expect them to get another job, or a new career.
Not to rely on me to offset their financial life choices.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
If the business world would simply value their employees OVER THEIR PROFITS, no government 'handouts' would be needed.
But if government ALLOWS them to off-shore, out-source, and stop employing Americans...

Again, another feel good subjective term. Value an employe means what?
They are paid what the market drives.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
see...they're in bed together. I think you get that. But you don't get the predicament that many people are in now...

I do.
And I know that they need to be responsible for themselves.

I assume you are this upset due to the thousands of people that were out of work delivering coal to homes, once electric and gas heat was piped to houses and business?

If you don't want minimum wage, then don't pick an industry that pays their workers minimum wage... Get training, certifications, an education, etc... It's scary how people have little to no understanding towards economics and just believe raising the minimum wage will solve everything... When the minimum wage gets raised again, expect to pay a little more for all your consumer items, because the increased wage cost will be passed on to the consumer and not the business.

a reply to: macman

Your post is quoting things I said but attributing them to Ordo.
Fix it.

And kindly stop the denigrating. "Underwater basket weaving"? Really?

My spouse has Cisco certification; he works as a Senior Software Engineer. His job was OUTSOURCED and he was unemployed for over a year. Explain how that happened....

Gha. never mind.

I think a fundamental problem is that most companies are just after making a profit, but I hope, and think, that many businesses were founded on a love for something or because of a actual human need.
While company sustainability is of course a necessity, profit should not even be a concern, perhaps only secondary effect of your love of bringing a product or service to other humans, which means to set the lowest price point possible.

I don't agree with a business model that needs to grow all the time. A business should of course be allowed to grow but only in such a manner that it doesn't sacrifice or inflict suffering upon nature or humans in its way to reach every possible customer, if it causes strife, your love for your product is not deep enough to fully express respect for the products roots and to its customers. If this was the general practice it would of course largely eliminate luxury but it maybe the only way to achieve a sustainable and peaceful society, in my mind that is a small price to pay.

I sincerely hope that this is the way things are headed, times are bleak in this regard but there is always hope.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Every job out there is not required to pay a living wage.

So you would rather have people living on welfare?

originally posted by: macman
If the person working isn't doing a job that comes with a pay above $9hr, it isn't anyone's fault except the person doing the job. They need to work towards a better paying job, not have their income offset to be on par with some BS arbitrary number for what income level they should be at.

I think you have a severe misunderstanding of the world. Some of the hardest workers I ever met worked multiple jobs for near minimum wage. Some of them had degrees, others never had the chance due to life's circumstances.

originally posted by: macman
Not really. I am a small business owner. I work for a publicly traded company. I deal with Fortune 500 companies and small companies as well in both my business and day job. I have several relatives that run large corporations and small 2 person shops. I see it as a whole, because I deal with all aspects day in and day out.

Ah. This appears to explain much. Did you get to your position in life without a single bit of help from anyone? There is a vast correlation between knowing people that are doing well and doing well yourself.

originally posted by: macman
Oh good hell.
This whole notion here on ATS to attempt to drive heavy taxation, welfare and handouts as Christian is the biggest load of BS.

Christianity is not driven by rendering unto Cesar. Nor is faith measured in how much is given from a paycheck.

Faith is faith in Christ and/or God. Period.
It has nothing to do with giving money to anyone.

I think you ought to read the Bible if you believe this is an accurate representation.

Matthew 19
21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. 23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

originally posted by: macman
I think you basically restated what I put, in just different words.

Incorrect - skill has no inherent worth in the job market. This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding by people with a tenuous grasp of economics. Again, businesses hire people that they need to function at close to the lowest cost to them that they can get away with.

If computer programmers all started to accept minimum wage in exchange for their skills, did their skills decline in value? There may still be a shortage of computer programmers in the market, but if they all accept minimum wage... that's what they will be paid. It's very similar to the prisoner's dilemma; if everyone refused to work for less than $10/hr, that would be the de facto minimum wage. With significant unemployment, that would be hard to get everyone to support, though.

It's not scarcity or skill that leads to increased wages. Scarcity does, however, give workers more bargaining power. That is what leads to increased wages.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

yup, and subsidized/socialized healthcare is Evil with a capital E.

a reply to: reject

yup, and subsidized/socialized healthcare is Evil with a capital E.

How so?
Does not everyone need healthcare?

It seems to work quite well in other countries.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It seems to work quite well in other countries.

Could you elaborate on this? You can state that it "works well" and I can point out the evils of socialized medicine too.

a reply to: bmullini

Well, that is not the point of this thread, so I will respectfully decline.
Not being sure what 'text' of mine you meant to reply to, I'm not sure what to say or do.

Feel free to start a new thread on the Evils of Healthcare for Everyone, and I'll reply to it.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

lol, okay. So no real debate, just vapid platitudes... carry on.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Whats that saying of your? Not my concern?

Sarcasm is not relayed well here.

originally posted by: crazyewok
1) Term resources can mean anything from Money, food, oil or even land.

So, which instance are you using?

originally posted by: crazyewok
2) The Earth is a Finite space. As such there is a limit to resources. Unless magic fairy's go around bringing stuff out of thing air at some point things run out. So far the human race has got lucky, the earths still a finite space.

Oh yes, the old Eugenics push of overcrowding.
Seems that was pushed during the 80s and we are still here.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Get your points straight!
Looks like you more help than just getting those socks on!

I need lots of help.
Paper money seems to be not finite. What backs it is what gives it value.

Wealth is infinite.

originally posted by: crazyewok

Yes on a small medium scale that works well.

So, freedom for some, but not all.

originally posted by: crazyewok
But let say a mega corp or group of them with similar interests gets enough money to buys 99% of land in the USA(or insert other western country) and 99% of its resources. Therefore they can rigg all markets in there favor and control property prices and reduce the majority of Americans to tenenets rather than property owners, they can have the power to extort, bribe and control the political scene. You thing they should be free to do that if they have enough wealth?

Yes, that is how the US was designed.
As for when used in the free market, there will always be someone that comes in to be competition to them, and offset this scenario.

originally posted by: crazyewok
How is that freedom for the majority that then live at there whim? You just replace government tyranny with cooperate tyranny.
You think it ok to do that?

So, you need to stop the freedom of one, to give freedom to another.

Doesn't work that way.

originally posted by: crazyewok
I don't see what your complaining about then!

Seems like you need to go back and re-read my statements.

originally posted by: macman

So, freedom for some, but not all.

Same can be said of your view too. What the point of freedom on a select few if everyone else are just "serfs"
Which is what will happen on the current trend

originally posted by: macman
Yes, that is how the US was designed.

What for a very few select family's to hold 90% of the land, wealth and power? Isnt that why you got rid of Britain and its Monarchy in the first place?

A Aristocracy doesn't necessarily have to have titles you know.

What the difference between the UK Dukes and Barons and say the US Bushes, Roosevelts and Clinton's? Not a lot except the title "lord" in front of there names.

originally posted by: macman
As for when used in the free market, there will always be someone that comes in to be competition to them, and offset this scenario.

Hence why Im for deregulation and lower but firmer tax laws and equal enforcement of the few laws that remain coupled with a removal of Corporate power from political power.

originally posted by: macman
So, you need to stop the freedom of one, to give freedom to another.

With complete cooperate rule it would be the other way round too.

originally posted by: macman
Seems like you need to go back and re-read my statements.

Well seeing as we are both for deregulation of the markets I dont see why we are arguing?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: macman

My spouse has Cisco certification; he works as a Senior Software Engineer. His job was OUTSOURCED and he was unemployed for over a year. Explain how that happened....

Gha. never mind.

Someone get this woman a stray jacket! We all know only dumb lazy people have no jobs! No CEO has ever felt greed and screwed over the people below them! Anyone criticizing any CEO must hate EVERY CEO! And it's cause they are jealous. Don't say Walmart sucks, cause look at Costco!

seriously. I don't get it.

It seems that those "low skilled" occupations expands a little bit more every year!!
What was deemed as worthy of a living wage a few years ago is no longer worthy!
And yet it also seems that it's those low skilled workers that we depend on everyday for most of what we need!
Our economy isn't gonna function too well without the cashiers in the stores checking out your groceries or recording your payment at the local electric company! And that school your child attends is gonna get awful dirty real fast without that janitor!

If there wasn't any social programs would they all still be there or would most either find a job that pays a living wage or well die off? So who would do there jobs if they all faded away?

Go to college get a degree!
Find a better paying job!!
Work smarter!

umm ya!! If everyone did manage to do this and land those living wage jobs just who would be doing the work they left behind!!

Voluteers?

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: darkbake

"Based on my understanding of the Bible and what I see presented to me as right-wing opinions, the conservatives in this country are going to hell."

Please expand on this, what kind of disconnect do you see?

Every American billionaire should have half of their money taken away, and be placed in the worst jail for a year. The Walmart owners walton family I think should all be hung in the town square. "In 2010, six members of the Walton family had the same net worth as either the bottom 28% or 41% of American families combined (depending on how it is counted)."

All problems of poverty stem from the ultra greed of the ultra rich. And that in the system, their behavior is rewarded and encouraged. The problems of society, namely 'poor people', will not go away or change, until the rich people are changed. Of course the rich people dont want this to happen. Of course the poor people want this to happen.

originally posted by: dawnstar


umm ya!! If everyone did manage to do this and land those living wage jobs just who would be doing the work they left behind!!

Voluteers?

The same people that do them now.

Mexicans

originally posted by: ImaFungi
Every American billionaire should have half of their money taken away, and be placed in the worst jail for a year. The Walmart owners walton family I think should all be hung in the town square. "In 2010, six members of the Walton family had the same net worth as either the bottom 28% or 41% of American families combined (depending on how it is counted

The owner of the company I work for is a billionaire. All of us that work there have plenty of anecdotal stories about how he has helped one person or another or various charitable organizations but you never hear it from him. He is a very inspirational person. He came here with nothing, got an education, started his own company and now we have the majors in our industry spooked (General Electric being one of them) because of our unique value proposition. I do not begrudge this man one penny. He works hard every day and I know that many people, including me, would not want his schedule. If you ask him why he keeps at it he well tell you that, "I have an obligation to the people that work for me to make sure I do the best for them and our customers every day."