The Terrible Fear of Paying the Poor Too Much

a reply to: Aazadan

Wow, so you know every corporate owner in the US and every one of their payroll policies? That's pretty impressive.
Please explain to me how teaching my children to be productive members of their community, working to support their families is teaching them to beg? They negotiate for their paychecks.
My children actually learned some valuable lessons watching their parents pay for the stupidity of debt. They haven't let themselves be seduced by the banksters so they are far better off than we were at their age---when a really good mortgage rate was 7%.

We agree that a spreadsheet is a tool. Tools are necessary items and the more skillfully one can employ a tool, the more successful the project, wouldn't you say? So when the OP called a tool "stupid" I questioned her knowledge of business. That's like blaming the "stupid" calculator when your budget goes into the red.

So my neighbor, living on his Social Security and a bit of savings, is a "plantation owner" if he pays the kid who clears the weeds from his property $7.25/hr.? Could you say again, what is your home planet?

originally posted by: Stuship
a reply to: BuzzyWigs



I have my brother explain to me that he was at minimum work 100k a year. He had just been released from prison for really screwing up with checks. The reality is he still believed he was worth 100k a year. It took him 8 long years to get back to a 100k a year job. How does a convicted felon hire in at $10 an hour and work his way back up to over 100k a year? It is simple, he wasn't satisfied and still isn't satisfied with his current living situation and is willing to do whatever he has to do to better prepare himself in this economy. He's reeducated and is more willing to apply himself than the next guy.

Thanks for another confirmation that it is Psychopaths that rise to the top.
No matter what it takes, cheap commie labor, buying politicians, back room deals, corruption, exploiting other countries, writing bad checks and even murder is A-OK if that it what it takes to get to the top! That is their definition of "success" no matter how many people you screw over to get there!

originally posted by: diggindirt
Wow, so you know every corporate owner in the US and every one of their payroll policies? That's pretty impressive.

No, I don't know all of them but if the gap in hourly pay between their highest paid member and lowest paid member is more than 20:1 (the bold claim JP Morgan made as to what the gap should be, that he was raked over the coals for saying as it was too large... for the prior millennia it was closer to 8:1, and people still became wealthy) they're exploiting their workers.

If your lowest paid employees make 7.25/hour you should be making no more than $301,600/year if you're on salary. Add appropriate overtime if you aren't (but if you're a CEO... salary is pretty much industry standard).

Please explain to me how teaching my children to be productive members of their community, working to support their families is teaching them to beg? They negotiate for their paychecks.

Because that's not what you taught them. You taught them to accept what the feudal lord is willing to pay. It's just begging from a corporation rather than from the government. Someone here recently posted and it was quite popular that you shouldn't expect to take home more than 10% of the value of the revenue you generate for your employer. Do you agree with that? If you make your employer $1,000,000/year you should get $100,000 in return? Sounds like anything but fair to me.

We agree that a spreadsheet is a tool. Tools are necessary items and the more skillfully one can employ a tool, the more successful the project, wouldn't you say? So when the OP called a tool "stupid" I questioned her knowledge of business. That's like blaming the "stupid" calculator when your budget goes into the red.

I'm currently redesigning spreadsheets and creating a database for a local company. I do a lot of this so that I can put the money together to do what I really want to do. Seeing what the vast majority of them come up with, and then seeing those same people call themselves technically literate is a joke. Most people are stupid, their spreadsheets are equally stupid, and give equally poor results. Not to say I'm amazing with them or anything but I atleast understand the basic design principals anyone with 30 minutes free can learn.

So my neighbor, living on his Social Security and a bit of savings, is a "plantation owner" if he pays the kid who clears the weeds from his property $7.25/hr.? Could you say again, what is your home planet?

It depends in my opinion. Is this a kid as in a 19 year old that's trying to support himself or a kid as in a 13 year old that has all their expenses paid for by their parents? If the job hires people who have to financially support themselves, not paying a wage which allows that is slavery.

Not to spoil the pity party but anything coming out of salon.com is Progressive propaganda and slanted.

a reply to: macman

Just to be fair Mac, Cisco has tons of different certifications and just because you specialize in software development does not mean you don't need or benefit from any of the Cisco certs available. Cisco certs are good industry standards to go by. Not that I agree with anything else the guy says. And also, I'm one of those people who got a degree in IT and walked right into a huge recession. Entry level jobs in my field have been outsourced, and jobs in general are hard to find. One cannot live on 10 bucks an hour. But this does not mean that I agree with Progressives on wage increases. The problem is way more complex. We have to start with the fact that whereas an average bookkeeper used to be able to get by and take care of his family is no longer the case. Why? Because the Fed keeps printing money and devaluing the dollar, we have lost our buying power and taxes are outrageous. I never saw a tax a Progressive didn't like.
Also, I would be interested to know if you were already in the Telecom industry when you got your certs, and with your supposed networking experience, I'm surprised at your browbeating the guy on this. It's really just not that easy to get a job when you first enter the field. Or maybe you are just a genius.
I do agree with you that there are a lot of people on this site who believe in government intervention and heavy taxes and the Nanny State. I do not believe in the Nanny State. Also, yes jobs are being outsourced, and yes many businesses have left the country because the unions and bureaucratic regulations and heavy taxation have made it difficult to operate in the US.

a reply to: macman

Something you can not comprehend apparently. Why they dont replace all these CEO or leaders with a computer program or a bot maintenanced by few programers is beyond me, it would be much more cost effective, that just may have to wait in the future I suppose. But hey I know the answers to my own questions.

a reply to: jkm1864

Ya I know its like a duh factor. Its like the chicken looking to the butcher to help him out of the butcher room. Its been said many times, its how the system is run because it is run so they come out on top that is the whole point of it. That is all they are capable of and all they do, and not only that all they think about and all they are capable of thinking about, and basically that is there defacto philosophy labor for yourself.

Only you know, somebody has to work and actually do things besides pushing paperwork all day. The best thing they can do is get rid of government there just intermediaries of the rich, both are parasitic to the classes they so call rule. Simple as that...But you know why they dont or why every century its like watching them bash against a brick wall? Anyways! To expect the rich or government to be there to help you is just silly, they are not capable of that, never were, never will be, nor are they even capable of thinking that, not now and not in a million years. Reading a few pages of these threads which crop up pretty frequently sometimes shows that undoubtedly.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You could benefit from understanding that the Democrat Party is chock full of corporate elitists and Congress critters who got rich after they got into government. Harry Reid is a great example of someone who made more after he got into Congress, and oh by the way is involved in selling off federal land for private deals....like in the Bundy ranch fiasco, while posturing as if he believes in saving the desert tortoise habitat.
Let's look at some other really rich Progressives. How about Bill Gates for example. Yes the extremely wealthy Bill Gates who dropped out of Harvard. He is set to make even more money off the technology for testing students in the disgustingly propagandistic Common Core Standards. Who else is going to make money off it? Pearson, the great and powerful Oz of IT certification testing. dianeravitch.net...
Gates also interestingly believes that vaccines are a great way to depopulate through sterilization of third world people unawares.
Then there's Warren Buffet of "tax me more" fame, yes the same liberal who was caught red handed not paying his own taxes. And by the way he is a major shareholder of Wal Mart in case you are one of those Wal Mart haters. www.forbes.com...
Then there's Nancy Pelosi one of the wealthiest in Congress, and I wonder why she hasn't given her millions to the poor and why she has personally foisted the evil that is Obamacare on all of us while reserving the Elite healthcare package reserved for Congress for herself.
Hypocrisy much?
No Republicans are just not alone in all this mess. But if it really makes you feel better, go on ranting about how evil the GOP is.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You do realise most CEOs are old guys, that even though they do make all the big bucks they cant exactly go party with it. What is more important time or money? If you have time you shouldn't be complaining because you can use it to make money.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Dfairlite

Sales associate at walmart vs sales associate at mom/pop shop = same skills, anyone can do that, the supply in the labor market was there, but the prices were artificially inflated by mom/pop shop.

No. Not the same skills. The people at the mom/pop hardware store are knowledgeable about how to use tools, which tools are appropriate for specific jobs, how to recommend nails and screws for a certain job, etc.
The walmart sales associate just knows how to point and say "hardware is in aisle nine."

I'd rather pay $20 for a hammer and the advice of an experienced carpenter than I would pay $8 for a piece of crap made-in-china look-alike. HUMAN RESOURCES. At our local Walmart there are something like 20 check-out lanes. I've never seen more than 5 of them attended at a time. There is NO ONE who knows about hardware.

Hell, the other day I went to Lowe's to find some timer pins for a standard mechanical dial-type on/off mechanism. I did my research, found out what I needed, and went to Lowe's, which said online they had them. I couldn't find them. I asked for help, and the 'guy with the keys' looked at me with annoyance and said, "I don't even know what that is. All the timers are in aisle 15." and walked away. The NEXT time I went to Lowe's, for ceiling tiles, some chunky kid was standing at one of their 'desks' and I asked him where ceiling tiles were. He said, "Eighteen, on your right", and went back to whatever he was doing on the computer.

I went to where he directed me, and couldn't find anything. So I went BACK to him and said, "Try again? Eighteen is plumbing." He slammed down his pen, stood up and walked off with a huffy attitude. I followed him. On the way, another customer came out of an aisle needing help. He glared at that guy, then led me to aisle Nineteen, turned to me, and said, "I was off by one." And stomped off.

That's SERVICE? No. That's crap.

Where, if I go to the local Ace Hardware, there are older people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, whether it's what kind of epoxy to use for marine applications, or what types of sand-paper are used for different purposes. Do you know what a pocket screw is?
I do, because I worked as a cabinet-maker for a while. Do you think that kid at Lowe's knows what a pocket screw is? I really, really doubt it. And considering that Lowe's sells cabinets that are held together with staples and plastic tabs, there isn't even a way to SHOW HIM what one is for.
Lame.

I'm glad you like the service of the mom/pop shops. Unfortunately, your small sample (you) is where you went wrong. The market spoke; people in general like the price/service at walmart better than they like the price/service at mom/pop shop. Otherwise mom/pop shop wouldn't have gone out of business.

Oh, and that huffy 19 year old guy, at lowes, that's who you want to give a raise to with minimum wage raises. He's not worth what he's being paid.

originally posted by: defcon5

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: darkbake

"Based on my understanding of the Bible and what I see presented to me as right-wing opinions, the conservatives in this country are going to hell."

Please expand on this, what kind of disconnect do you see?

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I can understand how you could miss these concepts in Christianity, after all they are so well hidden...

“Love they neighbor as thyself”
“Heal the sick”
“Feed the poor”
“We are all equal under God”

The truth is that Capitalism is nothing more then an excuse for self serving greed, under the guise that somehow one person deserves it more then another. Our capitalists are allowed to cheat, steal, and even use the military and police to force this from those less powerful then they are.

In truth, Christ was a socialist and even more likely he was a “true” communist. That is why religious people of the cloth take vows of poverty to this day, and live in religious “communes”, often from a “common” purse.

Even someone who is about as anti-religion as they get, understands it (start at 2:40):

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Capitalism is a mode of economy not a form of government. Capitalism is the allowance of choice in the economy.

I think choice is a pretty well established principal in the bible, the fact that we have to choose to follow Christ. So if you take that choice away (forced charity through government confiscation) is one actually living like christ or choosing to accept christian principals? No. So inherently christ cannot be a communist or socialist because they require force to extract charity when the charity of christ requires the active choice of the person being charitable.

Consider the man Christ asked to sell all of his things and follow him. Did Christ force that man to do so? No, in fact that man said he would not. Under communist or socialist rules that man would not have the choice to refuse. Good try though.

ETA: Muhammad was certainly a communist/socialist. Worship allah or be taxed/killed.

a reply to: Dfairlite

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Capitalism is a mode of economy not a form of government. Capitalism is the allowance of choice in the economy.

Communism is both a political and an economic system:

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a socioeconomic system structured upon common ownership of the means of production and characterised by the absence of classes, money,[1][2] and the state; as well as a social, political and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.

There has never been a true communist government in the world to date that I am aware of, outside of tribal ones. In true communism, everyone works, everyone shares, and everyone either prospers or suffers as a community.

What we have been taught to fear in the USSR was not communism, it was living in a Fascist Police State. Now we are heading into our own version of a Fascist Police State, despite being officially considered to be a Democratic Republic. The truth is that we are no longer a Democratic Republic, and the out of control greed/power of the rich is pushing us into an Oligarchical Police State. A police state where all the protections have now been lobbied in by the rich to protect themselves from the masses who are waking to the reality of the situation. For the first time in history they think they can control the masses via technology, where every time in the past when things have gotten this out of balance the masses have risen up and rebalanced the system. Ask the Romans why they feared the “mob”.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
No. So inherently christ cannot be a communist or socialist because they require force to extract charity when the charity of christ requires the active choice of the person being charitable.

Being forced to do what is right does not make it any less right. As a society we should want to do what is right, and as such there should be no argument here; but alas greed rears its ugly head with excuses about how dark is actually light, and red is really blue, again.

originally posted by: macman
...snipped for readability...

I dislike how you break down posts (sometimes into single sentences!) and feel that you do so maliciously. I won't do this and will instead respond to your 'points' sequentially.

It has little to do with your particular plight. You certainly have enough free time to post on ATS an average of 8+ times a day since you joined. This was, if you'll note, directed at your assertion that people working $9/hr or less deserve it. Essentially, you're communicating the idea that people need to work harder to earn more. One gentleman was a single father and worked around two full-time jobs, 16+ hours a day 5 days a week. He slept during the weekend. Additionally, I'm really not sure why you keep harping on taxation and welfare assistance in a thread talking about increasing the minimum wage, as these are entirely different subjects.

Again with the government assistance and taxation fixation - I do not understand what it has to do with this thread. The point was fairly clear, I thought - the paragraph was not divided like you do in response. You said you knew and had relatives who were in business. I asked if you had any assistance from people you knew, you know... connections? Family?

You yourself stated that you had relatives that run large and small businesses. Now you state that it's only people you met later? Quite curious. Again, this thread is about minimum wages, not government assistance and taxation.

The bulk of that remark is simply a refutation of your assertion that "It has nothing to do with giving money to anyone," not anything to do with taxes. Again, this thread is about the minimum wage. Perhaps you are lost?

Back in 'the day' as it were, rich people were thought to be blessed by God. Jesus said that just isn't so; that the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.

Again, no. Skill does not drive wages. Full stop. It's a meeting of business needing people, and those people refusing to work for any less.

Once again, no. You entirely missed the point. If computer programmers all voluntarily accepted lower wages, businesses would cut their wages. Even while there is a shortage of computer programmers.

I'd love to see that world too, but people have basic needs and are quick to compromise their ideals for those needs. Alas, it's much less likely to happen in the United States than in more civilized countries. Do you recall how unions work? It's basically like I just described, on a smaller scale (individual markets rather than vast sectors). Bargaining power is at work here - at its strongest when everyone agrees to work together for the collective good.

Yet again, no. Skill does not drive wages. Scarcity of skill doesn't even drive wages. Individual bargaining power is strengthened by having a needed skill, especially one that is hard to come by. Social connections also help bargaining power. Why do companies even respect minimum wage laws? Because governments have superior bargaining power. Why were unions so strong in forcing businesses to do things? Because the collective whole has equal or superior bargaining power.

Bargaining power is what drives wages.

a reply to: Greven
No, they are not entirely different, as the fact is that we all have to pay higher and higher taxes out of our paychecks to pay for all the people on welfare programs. More welfare programs equals more taxes out of every paycheck. Additionally, we have the communist progressive income tax code which is that every time you get into a higher pay bracket, you pay a higher percentage, so in essence, the more you make the more you are penalized. How can a person wish to aspire to work harder to make more if you are just going to have that much more of your paycheck taken out to pay for those who are on welfare programs and are not paying taxes? People have figured out that they can get more on welfare than they can working hard. So they work the system. This is what is wrong with socialism. There is no social justice in socialism, even though social justice is what Progressives eternally spout they are for. It is grossly unjust to make people who work hard to pay for whatever government handout programs Progressives desire and to do it by force or by deceit. At this time, the government feels justified in printing as much money as it wants while pretending to do good, it is destroying the economic stability and hurting all.

a reply to: defcon5

we never were a Democratic Republic.
We were created as a Constitutional Representative Republic.

Your credibility drops considerably
when you speak with a forked tongue.

You apparently choose to ignore what type of government we are.

This web site is all about denying IGNORance.

a reply to: spirited75

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: Greven
No, they are not entirely different, as the fact is that we all have to pay higher and higher taxes out of our paychecks to pay for all the people on welfare programs. *snip*

I would ask that you format your posts a bit better for readability, lest people not read them.

This thread is about the minimum wage, is it not? What does the minimum wage have to do with taxation or government assistance?

originally posted by: spirited75
a reply to: defcon5
we never were a Democratic Republic.
We were created as a Constitutional Representative Republic.

You are ignorant of political science terminology. That's not necessarily your fault nor a mark against you, but that is what political science classifies the United States of America as. Technically, some call it a constitutionally limited representative democratic republic. That you would attack another poster so is rather poor form.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
That Oracle CEO Larry Ellison took home $78,440,657 last year is completely reasonable in the minds of Republicans. That it would take a minimum wage earner 5,201 years to earn what Larry took out of his company for one 365-day period is, according to Republican-think, a morally correct calculation. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

People are allowed to make their own companies, sell, brand, and advertise their own products/service. Larry isn't stopping people from doing this. Him making that wage is really meant to be that high because of the tax bracket he is in. Have a flat income tax, and put a cap on amount CEO can make relative to lowest paid worker, and your problem(the wealth divide) is solved. He can still direct his company to buy him stuff, and sign over company ownership to himself after it's bought. The whole 74mil isn't a lot of money when you think about it.

SWIM made 300 g's a year selling magic mushrooms down in Florida. They stopped-and barely advertised when they did and still made that money. So-anyone can make money should they choose. SWIM started with the mushrooms growing them in the forest. There are several medicinal mushrooms you can grow that have high price tickets as well besides the magic ones.

Aside from that, there should definitely be a "livable wage", or low income subsidized housing for those that make less than that wage-as most rental rates are over inflated due to the real estate-construction-property management complex industry inflating rates-which is what makes a minimum wage unlivable in the first place. Proper rent values in Seattle are horrendous for example, and a lot of people need multiple jobs just to pay rent, and thus don't have time to develop their own business. .

But yah, their is no morality associated with division of wealth, merely people not petitioning correctly for new laws to be made to decrease division of wealth(which helps regulate inflation, boom bust cycle, interest rates) by imposing a ratio between highest paid employee and lowest paid employee. If highest paid wants to get paid more, he has to increase lowest paid. Let's call it interconnectedness economics if you will. When you increase the division, you get a lot of waste, and Uncle Sam is the only one who wins, and then he gets greedy, fat, and you have the government we have today, full of # assholes.

-Silver

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

If you are reading this and you make less then 14 dollars and hour you had better wise up. Inflation is steadily rising and will make it impossible for you to afford food and housing in the next 2 years.



Look at your weekly grocery bill and see this simple truth. What happens for the rest of us when this entire segment fails...................EPIC.........INFLATION. Prices are going higher and higher month by month when will the tipping point be reached.

originally posted by: SubTruth
If you are reading this and you make less then 14 dollars and hour you had better wise up. Inflation is steadily rising and will make it impossible for you to afford food and housing in the next 2 years.

Unfortunately being aware of the problem doesn't fix it. With the way our political system works it doesn't even put you in a position to fix the problem. At best it gives you a warning to perhaps get a higher paying job from someone else, but in a system where there aren't ample jobs for everyone it doesn't actually change the problem. You gaining a position that's above 14/hour just means someone else is below the 14/hour threshold instead and the big picture doesn't change.

Look at your weekly grocery bill and see this simple truth. What happens for the rest of us when this entire segment fails...................EPIC.........INFLATION. Prices are going higher and higher month by month when will the tipping point be reached.

It can't stop until government stands up to corporations. Higher food prices mean more food stamps (even though amounts have been getting cut, that will reverse before the situation goes critical) which means more subsidies for the farm lobbies which pay congress. Food stamps are a guaranteed amount of spending on their products. Rather than force corporations to pay proper wages and have a real economy, the government would rather subsidize corporate wages on one hand while subsidizing revenues on the other because this results in the most profits to lobbying groups.

When no one can afford food there will be riots. Every government is 9 meals away from being overthrown. My prediction for that happening is the 2017-2019 timeframe when the next financial crisis hits going by historical trends before Glass-Steagall and more recent history after it was repealed. Considering we haven't recovered at all since 2008 but have infact gotten worse... the next economic disaster will be fatal to our economy, and our government, and hopefully a few bankers.