Should Atheists (be allowed to) Participate in a Religious Discussion?

a reply to: whyamIhere

Why shouldn't they considering what an impact on everyone's lives religion actually has?

Religion is intrinsically involved in government. In the House of Lords we even have bishops involved in how our laws are made. The Monarchy is head of the Church of England - a somewhat inconvenient position for some of their antics though. I don't think the church pays tax on its wealth and the Vatican seems to have a considerable amount of wealth and artefacts stashed away from the public and peoples from whom they were acquired.

Ignatius Loyola made the Church's position on deliberate brainwashing completely clear when he boasted "Give me a child till he is 7 and he is mine for life" eg he will have been taught during the formative years and won't question what has been fed in. The church has demanded blind obedience which is something that separates people completely and should be discussed.

It should not be forgotten that the Church interferes in people's lives daily. It has dictated and continues to do so to married couples not to use birth control. It also has a set of 'services' one is expected to observe and pay for such as christenings, funerals, marriage and special masses apart from the normal collections so its practically a service industry with financial benefits. By demanding confession it gets to hear all the secrets people have which clearly advantages the clergy. I suspect it doesn't pay taxes on the money it collects and the Vatican is a good example of excess money and the acquiring of artifacts belonging to peoples who should have access to them but are denied.

It has never been held accountable for dubious and dishonest means of making money, such as 'seats in heaven for sale' etc. Neither has it been held responsible for the torture, murder and exploitation of the people carried out through its various denominations of monks and priests etc. It held science back years with its outmoded dogma and thought nothing of burning people who simply did not agree with it. Today's scandals carried out by the priesthood and still under somewhat dubious direction from its hierarchy, should show people the callibre of the men involved protecting the Church and the predatory nature of those exploitative personalities whom saw fit to carrying mass with no qualms over their own dirty hands.

I heard a priest say that one cannot separate the mother church from her teachings - which knowing now the priesthood and the lengths it has gone to protect itself, one can easily see how manipulate those men have been since the forming of Western religion and the way they have ensured, it and of course them, have stayed at the priviledged and comfortable centre of society..

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: whyamIhere
Do you think people of faith are uneducated or just dumb?


This is a sensitive topic. Please be respectful if you choose to reply...

um....no. When such a dumbass direction is taken, being nice is kind of out.

If you are bewildered by my response, please re-read the first question until it sinks in.

Religions were put together from multiple sources, partially completely wrong, partially totally misguiding in mistranslations and purposely made changes, but do contain leftover information from knowledge of ancient times and wisdom from wise men. So the key is to neither believe blindly, nor deny anything that might be related to it. Without understanding this there is a barrier between believers and atheists, never being able to exchange to find the better ways and fuse.

Many atheists look down on anyone who might look like a believer to them, trying to help them - after all to them a believer does not progress in thought and merely accepts the words literally or invents excuses about what it could mean.
Many, no matter what you posted, will say "Bull#! God doesn't exist!" even though the topic is not related to a religion or a god.
They usually see the media image of god being an image of a selfish man in the clouds magically creating things and find confirmation in obviously wrong biblical claims, because they still have to learn to see the large chain of cause and effect behind created texts to extract information.

When I was on that stage, only very scientifically talking people were able to reach me with their words. The question might be about whether to allow endless "argumentation" or anything on that level or if it is a helpful step on progressing for both sides. So both might some day realize they do no change on others by going on each time before creating a better way of communication to become one.

And those of you who go to the church every week - the others do have a point if you repeated the same process for years - make a change. Anyone who does not act is a harm to the other people and animals! Prayer had a function and karma, heaven and hell are partially a rough expression of what already happens to you. Depending on the text place which mentioned it.

a reply to: oneoneone

When people search for the truth. Religion quickly reveals itself.

I love to hear everybody's thoughts on this subject.

I guess the search for the truth never really ends.

I am still soaking in your post....Thanks for the well thought out reply.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
The reason people are losing faith, is because it's becoming increasingly difficult to shoe horn the religious myths of the bible into the 21st century with a whole wealth of scientific evidence and knowledge.

Very true. Science and archeology has proven that Genesis and Exodus didn't happen. Noahs Ark didn't happen. And when things that people were rock solid believing in are suddenly obviously not true ... all the other things come into question as well.

a reply to: whyamIhere

Should Atheists (be allowed to) Participate in a Religious Discussion?

Allowed to?

As long as both sides (or multiple sides) are civil and MODS don't kick them, of course they should be "allowed to".

I am an agnostic. I haven't seen sufficient evidence in support for the case of god or for the absolute absence of god.
I have read the bible front to back several times, as well as Hindu scriptures, the Koran, Buddhist philosophies, etc.

I feel like I should be allowed to post. Do I agree with everything everybody says? No.
Does anybody regardless of faith?

If a thread was just about generally agreeing with each other except on fine points where their denomination or personal beliefs differ, what kind of real debate would that be?

Does it bother you that people of faith seem to be happy and blissful?

Just because I lack a defined religious faith doesn't mean I can't experience bliss, just as every Christian may not experience it.

it seems a basic human trait to experience both happiness AND sadness and/or depression at times throughout the day to day of their lives.

ome of you seem to believe in UFO's. Doesn't that require faith?

UFO's are literally flying objects that are Unidentified. Does it take a certain type of person to have "faith" that there may be unidentified things seen?
Atheists and agnostics are not the only ones who believe in alien life or UFOs though there again I have yet to find compelling evidence that they have visited Earth, but I can't say for sure they haven't).

Do you think people of faith are uneducated or just dumb?

I think they simply hold beliefs and have a faith I don't. Is that wrong?

Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to post here in this thread, as I'm only "half" bad guy being agnostic and can't say whether you are "wrong" or "right" in my opinion and outlook.

But can anybody really win that "right" or "wrong" debate in matters of faith or spirituality or belief?

I realize there are feet-planted unmoving, unwilling-to-see-the-other-side people on every side.

Some of them --Christian, atheist, agnostic, any other religion can get insulting and belligerent. Not just one group.

That doesn't mean anyone shouldn't be allowed to speak their mind in a civil way.

There's no club with it's own rules on posting on this site in regards to these subjects.

Not everyone's search for truth leads them directly to "religion".



If this is TLDR, sigh, oh well.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Very true. Science and archeology has proven that Genesis and Exodus didn't happen. Noahs Ark didn't happen. And when things that people were rock solid believing in are suddenly obviously not true ... all the other things come into question as well.

The first bibles were most likely put together by the romans - a modified version of the 9000 year old story of the first (still?) documented place of war, slavery and "civilization", words of wise men, parts of eastern religion, some poems.

Since it is not all one thing it does not make everything in a book non relevant, though for many it can indeed be not worth it looking into it, as what they can see would be about trust which would thereby be negative to be put in.

The Noah story also came from the 9000+ year old story from that one place, no matter if its true or not, just refering.
One day one of the star people who lived together with people came to a man who had a wooden house on a mountain. He told him a flood would come, he should turn his house into a ship and get animals and plants on board.
To be more exact, the word was not star people, but one word for "those who came from the skies". Easily mistranslated to gods and angels. And it neither has to mean "aliens" as imagined. The story discussed whether to use robots or humans as slaves to save their home planet, though there are small, large, slow, fast life forms which you cannot see.

I think athiest post are a call to action. Trying to change the mindset of the way that the majority of people in the world believe in some higher power. It is just a matter of time until someone with some kind of power takes that stand again. So no they should not be allowed anything but post that do not inhabit the truth.

Only someone that has physically seen or been let in on the true nature of our reality would ever post such as i just did and be justified in the long run. Otherwise it is just opinions vs opinions and all should be welcomed. I have been let privy on info that involves a near future blinded Paul type event. It should be interesting for all.

a reply to: Chamberf=6

I love hearing people's thoughts on this subject.

I would never try to silence anyone. Somebody suggested it to me.

Thanks for your addition...

originally posted by: deadeyedick
I think athiest post are a call to action.

Trying to change the mindset of the way that the majority of people in the world believe in some higher power. It is just a matter of time until someone with some kind of power takes that stand again. So no they should not be allowed anything but post that do not inhabit the truth.

Only someone that has physically seen or been let in on the true nature of our reality would ever post such as i just did and be justified in the long run. Otherwise it is just opinions vs opinions and all should be welcomed. I have been let privy on info that involves a near future blinded Paul type event. It should be interesting for all.

Awesome, another christian prophet.

So whats coming? Since you are "in the know" it wouldnt be very christian to not try and help those that arent.

Being agnostic I don't feel I'm better or worse than anyone. Atheists believe what they believe as do worshipers.

To believe is a freedom. If you believe you then should be open to debate. If you are unwilling to allow others free voice then I pity you and your belief.

originally posted by: minusinfinity
Being agnostic I don't feel I'm better or worse than anyone. Atheists believe what they believe as do worshipers.

To believe is a freedom. If you believe you then should be open to debate. If you are unwilling to allow others free voice then I pity you and your belief.

Nicely said...

Just to have the Freedom to discuss the subject...is a beautiful thing.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: deadeyedick

I think athiest post are a call to action.

Trying to change the mindset of the way that the majority of people in the world believe in some higher power. It is just a matter of time until someone with some kind of power takes that stand again. So no they should not be allowed anything but post that do not inhabit the truth.



Only someone that has physically seen or been let in on the true nature of our reality would ever post such as i just did and be justified in the long run. Otherwise it is just opinions vs opinions and all should be welcomed. I have been let privy on info that involves a near future blinded Paul type event. It should be interesting for all.

Awesome, another christian prophet.



So whats coming? Since you are "in the know" it wouldnt be very christian to not try and help those that arent.

Well it depends on us. A better question i think is what has happened over the last 30 or so yrs that we are unaware of. The absolute one thing i truely know and would say with a gun to my head is that the only real losers are those who do not believe in GOD. Deep down inside those that totally deny are mad on a spiritual level and even face to face they will deny. They are marked.

a reply to: deadeyedick

the only real losers are those who do not believe in GOD.
Deep down inside those that totally deny are mad on a spiritual level

The first line sounds like your opinion beliefs and you're completely entitled to it.

The second line sounds like an absolute statement based on your personal opinions and assumptions that are totally unprovable--but you are entitled to think what you want.

Don't agree personally, but won't deny you the right to say it.

I am curious what you mean by this, though

I have been let privy on info that involves a near future blinded Paul type event. It should be interesting for all.

Sorry OP if that is too off topic.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: deadeyedick

I think athiest post are a call to action.

Trying to change the mindset of the way that the majority of people in the world believe in some higher power. It is just a matter of time until someone with some kind of power takes that stand again. So no they should not be allowed anything but post that do not inhabit the truth.



Only someone that has physically seen or been let in on the true nature of our reality would ever post such as i just did and be justified in the long run. Otherwise it is just opinions vs opinions and all should be welcomed. I have been let privy on info that involves a near future blinded Paul type event. It should be interesting for all.

Awesome, another christian prophet.



So whats coming? Since you are "in the know" it wouldnt be very christian to not try and help those that arent.

Well it depends on us. A better question i think is what has happened over the last 30 or so yrs that we are unaware of. The absolute one thing i truely know and would say with a gun to my head is that the only real losers are those who do not believe in GOD. Deep down inside those that totally deny are mad on a spiritual level and even face to face they will deny. They are marked.

wait, you said you had been shown what was coming. Now you say you dont know for sure. Seems like you are bailing on your claim....

But, I digress....I have neither the time nor the inclination to debate a self proclaimed prophet of the christian god yet cant be bothered to share the knowledge....not to mention someone who uses it as an excuse to demean those that dont agree with them.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I think athiest post are a call to action.

I think the only 'action' called for is to help any person who is seeking knowledge.
We can share what we know, what our personal beliefs are, and how we came to our conclusions.
It is up to every individual to take what information they garner and decide for THEMSELVES what their beliefs will be.
The days of blindly believing what you were taught to believe are gone.


The bible says you will know Gods' children by their works.
When SOME Christians argue religion(too many, by my observation), they do it with such vitriolic , disrespectful,hate-filled spewing that I am persuaded to believe their beliefs are something I would never want in my heart. Or life.




Spirituality is going through a great change, and I see it as a good thing. My predecessors had it wrong: they CHOSE to continue drinking the Kool-Aid, mostly out of fear IMO.

originally posted by: whyamIhere
I was ask by a friend this very question...Of course I answered yes, but?

I started thinking about it and I had to ask myself...Why would they?

Background: I was a thirty year Atheist. I was Atheist when being Atheist wasn't cool.

I don't want this to be a religious thread. I want to explore why Atheist's even participate.

If somebody was discussing the existence of Santa Claus...I would just move on.

Here are some of my specific questions...

Do you think people of faith are uneducated or just dumb?

Does it bother you that people of faith seem to be happy and blissful?

Do you feel you are educating people who have been indoctrinated?

Some of you seem to believe in UFO's. Doesn't that require faith?

Atheism is on the rise. Have people just lost their faith?

Would you be willing to admit you have no proof whether God exists or not?

I appreciate you taking the time to read. This thread is not about Religion.

It is about Faith or lack there of.

This is a sensitive topic. Please be respectful if you choose to reply...

Why would they be interested anyway, unless it is to simply provoke someone?

When talking about religion, it is usually Christian that gets the most attention, I haven't seen so many threads trying to debunk Tengrism or Shamanism or Polynesian religions. I wonder why that is. It's like people think that Christianity is the only religion and all others are just something else. When talking about religion, then all religions should be discussed.

But the trend is against Christianity. When Jewish people share about Judaism, people attack them calling them Zionists, and get by with it. When Muslims have threads, it's never just about Islam, it's about attacking Christianity in some form. Then they get upset with Christians who respond against the misrepresentation. Pagan religions are usually relegated to the paranormal forums.

What would be fair is that all religions be able to represent their particular systems. That way atheists can spend time perusing the many views out there instead of being stuck on the Christian ones.

a reply to: whyamIhere
I believe I am qualified to participate in discussion on religion due to the fact that that I was a Christian for the the first 25 or so years of my life.
I spent 25 +years in a variety of different Christian churches of different denominations. I have dedicated much of my time to studying the bible.
I have an understanding of where the Christian is coming from and their way of thinking.
When I came to the realization that I no longer believed in the Christian God, I went on to learn about other religions in my search for the truth.

Do you think people of faith are uneducated or just dumb? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that it depends on the individual. I do believe many, especially the ones born in the faith are undereducated about what others believe and the truth about evolution. I would say it is more of a miseducation.
Of course I have run into a few that it IS just because they are dumb. There are others whose reason for faith is a religious experience that was very real to them. I do not lump all people of faith into one category.

Does it bother you that people of faith seem to be happy and blissful? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

As along as it doesn't hurt others, then no. However, I have seen one persons bliss be the cause of another persons pain.

Do you feel you are educating people who have been indoctrinated? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The most I hope for is to get them to think and try and see things from a different perspective.

Some of you seem to believe in UFO's. Doesn't that require faith? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

This doesn't really apply to me because having never seen a UFO, I take a more agnostic stance on the topic of UFO's. Do I believe there is other life out their? Yes, Do I believe we have been visited? I don't know.

Atheism is on the rise. Have people just lost their faith? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I believe it is a combination of education, critical thinking and yes, a loss of faith.

Would you be willing to admit you have no proof whether God exists or not? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Absolutely. I guess that makes me a more Atheist leaning agnostic.

originally posted by: calstorm

What I don't like is the misrepresentation.

When people say "Christians believe....." and then it's some random theology not held by all of Christendom then somehow people think all Christians believe that.

And when it comes to Muslims purposely misrepresenting Islam, they get upset because we talk about the Quran and then say "Well all you Christians believe..."

Perhaps it would be better if there weren't loaded thread titles, baiting people for an excuse to attack any religion.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: whyamIhere

 

One only declares himself an atheist in the context of religion. So yes. There's no use for the term outside of religious discussion. If atheists wanted nothing to do with religion, they wouldn't call themselves atheists.

Your statements are nonsensical and illogical. The very fact that atheists want nothing to do with religion begs for them to call themselves such. What the heck else would they call themselves?

Do you know what the definition of atheism is? Theism is the belief in the existence of a deity or several deities. When you put the prefix 'a' in front of a word, it means "not". As in "not" theist/not believing in the existence of a deity/god/gods/supernatural power. There is no other time that the use of such a term would ever come into play other than in the context of religion or spirituality. That does not make someone religious or spiritual.

Being adamant about ones beliefs or lack thereof does qualify oneself as religious.