If it's crucial for our salvation, why doesn't god give us proof of his existence constantly?

originally posted by: [post=17859421]Prezbo369

'It has been revealed to mankind? really? when? where? please provide evidence.

Dalamatia - approx 500,000 years ago
Eden - approx 35,000 years ago
Melchizedek - approx 4500 years ago
Jesus - approx 2000 years ago
Urantia Book - approx 80 years ago

Not to mention the countless prophets that have appeared in all cultures across the ages.

You made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Otherwise why would anyone give your claim the time of day?

What would constitute proof to you?

You as a mechanistic philosopher professes to reject the idea of a universal and sovereign will, the very sovereign will whose activity in the elaboration of universe laws you so deeply reverence. What unintended homage you pay the law-Creator when you conceive of such laws to be self-acting and self-explanatory!

To the unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident. His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter. No display of energy nor expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave. The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man’s only reward for living and toiling under the temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good.

But such is not man’s end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God’s children on earth.

This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.

God gives us proof, He loved you first, He created you. Your soul is eternal, after water baptism God resides in
your soul. His presence in you remains less you commit a mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sin.

Why Our Lord established Confession (John 20:23). Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest, they
must with heartfelt repentance confess their mortal sins directly to God.

Daily prayer and regular confession, for the life of your soul

originally posted by: UB2120
Dalamatia - approx 500,000 years ago
Eden - approx 35,000 years ago
Melchizedek - approx 4500 years ago
Jesus - approx 2000 years ago
Urantia Book - approx 80 years ago

Not to mention the countless prophets that have appeared in all cultures across the ages.

Ever since we jumped down from the trees (and probably before that) we have created superstitions to explain what we couldn't. Numbers of people with the same superstitions form cults like the list above, and all that has revealed to the human race is just how weak and gullible we can be.

So if all you can produce is a list of cults based on rumors and superstitions then I have no idea why you would make such a claim.

What would constitute proof to you?

Evidence would do, evidence of anything super natural, Ghosts,ghouls, specters, phantasms, goblins etc etc. Any of those would suffice.

The rest of your post is plagiarized from the over indulgent and needlessly dramatic 'Urantia Book'.



If you're not going to bother giving your own personal opinion on these boards, why bother to post at all? to merely regurgitate someone else's work and thoughts?

Besides, i'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that to post such quotes without making it clear you are indeed quoting an external source is against ATS rules and a mod should take a look at that....

originally posted by: colbe
God gives us proof, He loved you first, He created you. Your soul is eternal, after water baptism God resides in
your soul. His presence in you remains less you commit a mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sin.

Why Our Lord established Confession (John 20:23). Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest, they
must with heartfelt repentance confess their mortal sins directly to God.

Daily prayer and regular confession, for the life of your soul

A good example of what I was saying in my previous post.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Do you not consider the creation of the Universe to be super natural? How else could it have been created? Something caused creation that exists outside of time and space. That something appears to have mind. Physics can explain a Jet Engine, but it can't explain who built it. The laws of physics cannot cause anything to happen.

What about the Cosmological Constant? There are 20 or so foundations of reality that are so finely tuned that even having one slightly off would cause the universe to fall apart. There is no logical answer to the creation of the Universe other than it was designed for a purpose.

To quote C.S. Lewis from his book Miracles

"The laws of nature produce no events, they state the pattern to which every event have only and can be induced to happen must conform. Just as the rules of arithmetics state the pattern to which all transactions with money must conform, if only you can get a hold of any money. Thus in one sense the laws of nature cover the whole field of space and time. In another what they leave out is precisely the whole real universe. The incessant torrent of actual events, which makes up true history, that must come from somewhere else; to think the laws can produce is like thinking that you can create real money by simply doing sums. For every law says in the last resort: "If you have A, then you will get B" But first catch your A. The laws will not do if for you. "

originally posted by: colbe
God gives us proof, He loved you first, He created you. Your soul is eternal, after water baptism God resides in
your soul. His presence in you remains less you commit a mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sin.

Why Our Lord established Confession (John 20:23). Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest, they
must with heartfelt repentance confess their mortal sins directly to God.

Daily prayer and regular confession, for the life of your soul

And where is the proof any of that is true?

a reply to: UB2120

What about the Cosmological Constant? There are 20 or so foundations of reality that are so finely tuned that even having one slightly off would cause the universe to fall apart. There is no logical answer to the creation of the Universe other than it was designed for a purpose.

No, it wouldn't fall apart, it would be different. And the creatures that inhabit it would be evolved to fit into it's system and some would then say 'that the universe exists and suits us so well is proof of design/God.' At least the less familiar with physics and evolution would say that.

a reply to: Antigod

God has given us proof of his existence constantly. There is even a couple of scriptures that talks about it.

a reply to: UB2120


Dalamatia is a region of Croatia.
No such person named Eden exists.
Are you making this up as you go along?
Putting Jesus in the prophet category is an error.

UB2120 clearly another ATS religion forum troll.

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration
a reply to: Antigod

God has given us proof of his existence constantly. There is even a couple of scriptures that talks about it.

Well if the scriptures say there's evidence, there must be!......


The trees, birds, flowers, sunsets and dog excrements don't cut it.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration
a reply to: Antigod

God has given us proof of his existence constantly. There is even a couple of scriptures that talks about it.

Well if the scriptures say there's evidence, there must be!......

The trees, birds, flowers, sunsets and dog excrements don't cut it.

Yes they do. But clearly nothing will cut it for someone who love their sin more than God.

Romans 1:18-20 ESV

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

a reply to: Prezbo369

The trees, birds, flowers, sunsets and dog excrements don't cut it.

How about the sun coming up every day?
And the Sun orbiting the earth every year to create the seasons?
And the moon going through its cycles in a predictable way so we can measure the months to figure out how much time has passed?
These are all wonderful tings that do not happen by accident.
There has to be a God up there making this work out in a way that benefits us living here on this earth.
If it didn't, we wouldn't be here because the world would be too harsh to support us.
We should at least acknowledge that this is so, whether you want to extend that to higher forms of worship or not.

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: colbe
God gives us proof, He loved you first, He created you. Your soul is eternal, after water baptism God resides in
your soul. His presence in you remains less you commit a mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sin.

Why Our Lord established Confession (John 20:23). Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest, they
must with heartfelt repentance confess their mortal sins directly to God.

Daily prayer and regular confession, for the life of your soul

And where is the proof any of that is true?

Anti-God,

Proof, what I shared has been revealed by the men who knew Our Lord 2000 years ago and passed on through the generations. This is goodness the advise and revelation, why would the Apostles be liars sharing the good Our Lord taught them?

Why would men throughout these 2000 years lose their lives for Christ (martyrs) if Christ's teachings are not
true?

99.9% of the miraculous points to Jesus Christ, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. I give you one, a SCIENTIST explains a recent in our time Eucharistic miracle in Argentina. There are miracles within
miracles here. View and read the translation, it is amazing. Only God can do this...

The original YouTube had over a million views. God bless you.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: colbe

I don't know what to do with these "Miracles" in the Eucharist... I can't seem to find anything that debunks these results from the scientific community...

IF this is legit then it should be repeatable...

Something seems fishy... I would guess the "scientists" that analysed the sample were Catholic...

But you made me wonder... a star for you colbe

originally posted by: Antigod
a reply to: UB2120

What about the Cosmological Constant? There are 20 or so foundations of reality that are so finely tuned that even having one slightly off would cause the universe to fall apart. There is no logical answer to the creation of the Universe other than it was designed for a purpose.

No, it wouldn't fall apart, it would be different. And the creatures that inhabit it would be evolved to fit into it's system and some would then say 'that the universe exists and suits us so well is proof of design/God.' At least the less familiar with physics and evolution would say that.

Evolution is nothing more than God's creative technique in Time and Space. Life is initiated on a planet and managed until a creature of will dignity evolves. At that point the supervisors of the process withdraw.

Physics has no answers to the creation of the Universe.

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration
a reply to: UB2120


Dalamatia is a region of Croatia.
No such person named Eden exists.
Are you making this up as you go along?
Putting Jesus in the prophet category is an error.

UB2120 clearly another ATS religion forum troll.

Dalamatia was the name of a city that is now under the water of the Persian Gulf. Eden is the name of the place where Adam and Eve lived that is now under the water of the Mediterranean Sea. I did not put Jesus in a prophet category, was listing the various revelations that have been presented to mankind.

originally posted by: UB2120

originally posted by: Antigod
a reply to: UB2120

What about the Cosmological Constant? There are 20 or so foundations of reality that are so finely tuned that even having one slightly off would cause the universe to fall apart. There is no logical answer to the creation of the Universe other than it was designed for a purpose.

No, it wouldn't fall apart, it would be different. And the creatures that inhabit it would be evolved to fit into it's system and some would then say 'that the universe exists and suits us so well is proof of design/God.' At least the less familiar with physics and evolution would say that.

Evolution is nothing more than God's creative technique in Time and Space. Life is initiated on a planet and managed until a creature of will dignity evolves. At that point the supervisors of the process withdraw.

Physics has no answers to the creation of the Universe.

God did not use evolution to create the universe or Man-kind.

Evolution + the Bible = entirely incompatible.

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration

originally posted by: UB2120

originally posted by: Antigod
a reply to: UB2120

What about the Cosmological Constant? There are 20 or so foundations of reality that are so finely tuned that even having one slightly off would cause the universe to fall apart. There is no logical answer to the creation of the Universe other than it was designed for a purpose.

No, it wouldn't fall apart, it would be different. And the creatures that inhabit it would be evolved to fit into it's system and some would then say 'that the universe exists and suits us so well is proof of design/God.' At least the less familiar with physics and evolution would say that.

Evolution is nothing more than God's creative technique in Time and Space. Life is initiated on a planet and managed until a creature of will dignity evolves. At that point the supervisors of the process withdraw.

Physics has no answers to the creation of the Universe.

God did not use evolution to create the universe or Man-kind.

Evolution + the Bible = entirely incompatible.

That is very true, the Bible is sorely out of date and is not compatible with evolution. Nor is it compatible with life on other World's. That does not mean that evolution and life on other world's is not true. Evolution is a fact, but that should not in the least get in the way of your belief in God. Evolution is ordained by God and the process is fostered by beings created by God for that sole purpose. It's only a matter of time before intelligent life on other planet's will be a fact. That does not mean God loves humanity any less.

The Bible is like using a map from the Middle Ages as your World Atlas. There are many truths in that map, but many errors as well. There are many truths in the Bible, but there are also many errors. If you were a true believer in God that would not matter. Nothing that human's are involved with can be infallible.

You have to do what Jesus did and cherry pick the scriptures. For example, Jesus often said “Love your neighbor as yourself". He took that from Leviticus 19:18 which says “You shall not take vengeance against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Once you grasp that God is infinite and has created a vast array of life throughout the universe you should realize that the truth about him cannot be limited. Don't get stuck at the Bible. There is more to God than that.

a reply to: UB2120

Glad you agree, I wish more Christians would stop compromising with the world and stand firm on Genesis... The B.I.B.L.E. (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) is just as relevant today as was in middle-ages if not more so. Molecules to man evolution has never been demonstrated by secular scientists, so I wish people would stop saying it was a fact. People mostly preach evolution when they want to be their own gods and not be held accountable for their actions in life, but God see's all things and keeps a record for when we die.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Prezbo369
How about the sun coming up every day?
And the Sun orbiting the earth every year to create the seasons?
And the moon going through its cycles in a predictable way so we can measure the months to figure out how much time has passed?
These are all wonderful tings that do not happen by accident.
There has to be a God up there making this work out in a way that benefits us living here on this earth.
If it didn't, we wouldn't be here because the world would be too harsh to support us.
We should at least acknowledge that this is so, whether you want to extend that to higher forms of worship or not.

It reminds my of a story about a puddle I once heard. This puddle was utterly amazed by the fact that it fit into the pothole in the street so amazingly, so perfectly, that it thought that the hole had to be intelligently designed just for him/her/it........