Tactical advantage: Russian military shows off impressive new gear

a reply to: projectvxn

Do you think we could have used the Comanche?

originally posted by: orangetom1999
MrSPad,

Welcome to the last 200 years of the military. Enlisted people complaining and the military leading the way on social issues is pretty much what the US military has been since it became a professional force. None of that is new, in fact it is simply the way it has always been.

Negative, It has gone beyond that now..way beyond that now.
This is not just Enlisted People but officers today as well. They too are getting out. You now have in motion a system where what you know and can do means little next to political correctness...quotas..political appointees and thus..real leadership will be found to be lacking next to the PC agenda. It is becoming rapidly an infected virus spirialing out of control. This will become evident with our next scheduled war. It is not all the gadgets or gimmicks ..technology per se..but the leadership ....and will to succeed. This has been hijacked...stolen..ceded to political correctness and is waxing worse...and worse. We are going the way of the UK military...continental Europe too.
It is going to cost a lot of American lives in the next war..and there will be a next war.

Orangetom

I heard this same load of crap when I was in. And from what I was told my dad did as well when he was in. And my grandfather as well who claimed it was happening in his war WW2. It is the same old military talk. And it has been going on since day 1. Nothing new at all. Well accept there was a time early on in our history where it was true, officers were selected because they were gentlemen and friends of somebody. of course even then we did ok. Heck people have been writing books about it for a hundred years. We have the most combat experienced officer corps we have had since post Vietnam.

I refuse to believe that all the money the US has funneled into secret black budget projects over the years that makes the expenditures of other nations look like pocket change has gone towards nothing.

I may not like my country, but am fully of the opinion any hint of technological superiority of any nation over the US militarily is a well orchestrated illusion.

If anyone believes the US best "real" toys are seeing the light of day then I think they're kinda silly really.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Better airframes have been developed for far cheaper than the Comanche since then.

The StealthHawk, the S97 Raider, and the newest versions of existing airframes like the Mike Model Blackhawk, the Fox Model Chinook, and the Apache Block 3.

The Comanche, at this point, is dead in the water from the start.

a reply to: Puppylove

i can attest that the real US toys will not be seeing the light of day, and that they are very, very advanced and very, very impressive. unbelievably so actually.

a reply to: doompornjunkie

Big one?

What big guy or big guns?

Seriously though, i've always wondered about helmets when i was in the army..they stand virtually no chance of stopping a round, so what's the point of having the troops wear them?

As pointed out, the rag tag bands of fighters that kept the Soviets at bay for a decade in Afghanistan, and ultimately saw them off didn't wear helmets or body armour..and these are the same guys that have engaged the Western military forces for over a decade too..so really what's the point of helmets in modern warfare?

I could understand wearing them if they incorporated a HUD with screens being fed from circling ahead drones or battle commands etc. but for protection, even if they didn't get penetrated by a round, the concussive forces would likely kill the wearer anyway. Getting hit would be like having a car thrown at your head.

a reply to: MysterX

Shrapnel,spall in a vehicle getting thrown around in a vehicle,hearing protection.
THEY DO deflect off angle shots reasonably well. Not to metion the round is partially spent AFTER it penetrates.
I agree howevere they DO need to integreate sensors that are rugged and functional enough.

a reply to: MrSpad

I am not talking about combat ready or experienced troops..I am talking about leadership positions. A very different thing from what you are speaking. Leadership positions also included civilians over the military.

Do they have the will to win and take the gloves off or will we continually be fighting wars with no spoils for us...no real victory in sight...like Iraq and Afghanistan..like Vietnam...like the years spent in Europe...Yugoslavia.. et al. Wars designed and intended to keep them going..not to conclude them..but to keep them going.

And when we do fight will we have the gloves continually put on us to the detriment of our troops. This is not leadership..it is politics.

What I am saying and is obvious to a lot of people who have gotten out of the Military is that our leadership is now infested with yes men..not leaders. Political yes men who mostly have the capacity to get our people killed...ala..Bengazi...and more to come.

How much smarts does a person have to possess to see the handwriting on the wall?? We are not there to win but to create a political circumstance..which will often put the USA and our people...in last place..while taking first place risk with people and material.

We fight to a standstill against third and fourth rate opposition...Really???!!

We arm and create our enemies who turn on us and we keep the gloves on.

We keep the wars going not end them. Meaning there is a much more important economic deal going on ..more important than the lives of our troops and our people.

Then when the wars are over..we bring our enemies here to this country at an ever accelerating pace so that they can continue to war against us and our people take second third and fourth place in our own country to these new arrivals.

This is so obviously what we fight for today by an ever increasing pace of this taking place...second and third place in our own nation.
I pray when our people..even our military catch on to this template.

What also and particularly pisses me off is the roasting that our veterans are taking with not only the Veterans Administration..but with our own government not trusting them to own a gun...but pick up one to go out and fight their dirty wars for them.
But we can give billions to some foreign nations but not take care of our veterans. As a veteran that really burns my backside. We cannot take care of our Veterans...but take care of people coming recently across the border to the tune of millions and millions of dollars??

That is a highly successful strategy to keep troops for fighting the next war..knowing they are going to come out on the short end when they return. But it is politic...or another word for it is ...poor leadership.

But don't worry ...the Kardashians are on tonight... so too with NASCAR.

Leadership....both civilian and military.... Really lacking..

Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

my friends who served Said the thing thats hurting the military most within the military is bad leadership from the officers.

apparently they are more concerned with their career and portfolio than they are taking care of their own men.

if theres any risk involved where the officer could get a bad fit rep the plan in kaboshed.

if the officer is bucking for promotion he'll put together a unrealistic plan that looks great on paper but fails to consider the enlisted. from their safety to their ideas on the plan. just so long as the officer looks good and keeps getting promoted. military leadership according to him is more about corporate politics and being administrators than warriors.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

yes..indeed BASSPLYR. Agree.

I have been hearing that it is worse than that of which you describe. A great number of strategic officer positions have been filled with yes men. By this I mean yes men to the body politic and it's social causes celeb.

I am saying that the role of the military is now a social role..not a military role. The military role has been usurped to the social/political role.
The military, In like manner to public schools, has become a test tube laboratory for social engineering programs for up and coming votes..a controlled laboratory environment where no dissention is allowed...a potential controlled voting block. Perfect group think. A cloistered environment ...just like public schools. These social programs are being carried out in both public schools and the military.

This is being done in the military to the detriment of their missions and morale.

And this is being done because of the characteristic of the "Closed/cloistered environment " is precisely what is needed to carry out these social programs.
Because..for the most part..no one can see what we do...cloistered..protected...isolated.

And the leadership positions have been filled accordingly...to promote these programs..not necessarily mission requirements but these social programs. This requires yes men...not individual thinkers.
The military is to be leaned out of shooters and leaders and replaced with hard charging social engineer types. Social Justice Warriors running what remains of the military.

This is going to cost lives on the other end when we get into a real shooting war...and we will eventually get into a real shooting war...

A lot of good people have found this unpalatable..and gotten out..left the military when they realized it was not the product advertised.

This Exodus began , as near as I can tell...back with the Clinton Administration. It accelerated big time under this current administration. If Hillary wins the election...how do you think it is going to continue???

I made a prediction some time ago based on lack of leadership...that our people would get stuck somewhere on the other side of the world ...with no help and no way home. I did not think it was going to happen with Benghazi...on the State Department Level. I thought it would happen with a military unit abandoned to the body politic. But nonetheless it happened. It is going to happen again with this kind of leadership going on..or lack thereof.

It was also clear to a number of individual thinkers that Leadership was not the forte of this current administration....but social change by default was their forte...and the military is reflecting this spot pattern and in a way not seen or known by most people with a Kardashian/NASCAR/television/movie mind set..

Because this kind of thing cannot change it's spots..it can only "Gaslight" and politic....the blame game.
But people will lose their lives to this "Whoredom." Good people..civilian and military.

"Whoredom" The buying, selling , trading, and or bartering of peoples very souls for political lucre.

Thanks,
Orangetom

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: orangetom1999

my friends who served Said the thing thats hurting the military most within the military is bad leadership from the officers.

apparently they are more concerned with their career and portfolio than they are taking care of their own men.

if theres any risk involved where the officer could get a bad fit rep the plan in kaboshed.

if the officer is bucking for promotion he'll put together a unrealistic plan that looks great on paper but fails to consider the enlisted. from their safety to their ideas on the plan. just so long as the officer looks good and keeps getting promoted. military leadership according to him is more about corporate politics and being administrators than warriors.

This is always the case. It always has been and is not unique to the the US. Patton was classic example of this in WW2. He could careless what the cost of lives were as long as he got something first and got a headline. Read about face by Colonel Hackworth published in 1990 saying everything you and orangetom are saying going back to just after WW2 when he enlisted. Same exact claims, same predictions of doom. Then came the fist Gulf War and the book looked kind of foolish after.

a reply to: MrSpad

By the time of the first and second Gulf Wars...a new strategy began to take hold at the top levels...the OODA loop thinking.

This was thought up by an Air Force Colonel of all people. John Boyd. His thinking was based on "Energy Maneuvering." First in Fighter aircraft..the ability to gain or bleed off energy and get behind ones enemy/Prey.
This meant tactics and an aircraft of the correct design.
What Boyd found out by careful study of physics..is that we in America were buying the wrong aircraft which did not endear him to the Generals, Admirals, Political lobbyists and soul stealers/sellers in the Pentagon.

What Boyd also did was to apply this to ground troops and military strategy. That troops need not go right up the middle where the greatest resistance was to be found as was traditional strategy...but instead go around them and towards the objective..do not get bogged down. Let air power and artillery take care of a lot of those fortified areas...go for the objective.
This made and has made today..small unit highly disciplined soldier and tactics more the thing...more the strategy than in years past. Quick moving highly trained troops and units. The Blitzkrieg to a new level by technology. Very very rapid today.

This strategy was sold to the first Bush administration and the Secretary of Defense...as the way to go.
By the Second Gulf War..new strategies and new technology made it even faster in taking place.

I like this kind of thinking. Will it apply to everything ..probably not..but definitely a lot of things. But it requires again..good leadership...of all units involved. Not politicians and social engineers...Social Justice Warriors but shooters...individuals who can move quickly and think flexibly and on the run.

The other thing about Boyds Strategies..is that casualty rates are usually pretty low if carried out correctly and to success.
This is what was so stunning about Gulf War 1...the casualty rates were predicted to be so much higher. I thought so too before I learned about Boyd's applications.

Even in Fallujah and ..when the gloves were taken off for a short time..they went through those guys like crap through a goose.
This is why it so pisses me off when they so often send our people in with the gloves on ..not bare knuckled.

In my mind and soul...ideally ..as a leader..I would never want to have to send our people in..period.
But if they must go in ..have the best trained , best equipped people and take the bloody gloves off...or don't send them in at all.
And leave the bloody politicians behind..and duct tape their mouths. Or better yet..stick them out on the front line..out in front...like the Romans did in the early days of the empire. Those who voted for war had to lead the attack.

Sorry for the rant but it really torques my jaws what they are doing and have done to our military.


By the way...Bloody Patton...how about General Haig..in WW1 sending so many British troops over the top against artillery and machine guns...using the strategies of the last war??

en.wikipedia.org...

Some like to say .."There will never be another Haig."



Orangetom

It depends on what variant it is. The 7N6M, 7N10, 7N22 and 7N24 variants all possess armor piercing capability to one degree or another.
a reply to: doompornjunkie

It's been going on since at least Vietnam. My first promotion past E-3 in 1967 was delayed because promotions to E-4, in the lower enlisted at least, were given to black soldiers first. I don't know of there was a particular ratio or not.

a reply to: orangetom1999

a reply to: roguetechie

Since you are very much into to this. You probably know that NATO did some simulations along With their NATO drills this summer. In all of this simulations and drills, the US noticed that they lost every Battle. Not just in Ukraine, They lost every one of them. Even the air Battles.

It is also said that is why the US are now sending a aditional number of F-22s to Germany and Italy to the once they sent last month.

EDIT.

Much of this might be clasified information in some countries.

- But Things NATO noticed the hard way was that simple Things like a Railroad tracks dont match up around europe. And that caused a lot of problems. Specially when tanks, APC and other HW was sent by Train to different locations without the drivers fallowing the Trains. And the personell had to take busses to get their gear.

- NATO found out that the European roads couldnt handel the weight of moste of the heave Equipment. Many briges couldnt be used. And these are just a fraction of all the Things that went wrong.

- Communications did work out that well either. It ended up with that they had to use conventional Methods. Because some NATO members use different Communications Equipment that did not match up With the NATO standard (phantom codes).

- I also have to mention the Language problem. People speak differnt languages in different parts of europe, and that caused a lot of missunderstanding and miss communication.

If the US thinks its going to be a walkover taking Russia i wouldnt want to be the first one on the front line taking the first batch of whoop ass.



EDIT.

A aditional issue NATO/US and UK discused was the time it would take to get the sear number of jets needed for an Assault of the ground before Russian missiles started to rain Down on the airfields.

The other issue was alternative locations to land the massive number of jets who needed to be re-armed and refule. Having a airfield(s) capable of handeling a wast number of fighter jests at a time was a big issue.

So there is electronic warfare equipment being brought in as well. Looks like the terrorists will be having some trouble with thier electronics pretty soon!

www.liveleak.com...
An electronic warfare complex made in my city is spotted protecting Russian airport in Syria

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
So there is electronic warfare equipment being brought in as well. Looks like the terrorists will be having some trouble with thier electronics pretty soon!

www.liveleak.com...
An electronic warfare complex made in my city is spotted protecting Russian airport in Syria

This complex is part of the area denial weapon systems "A2/AD" set up along the Syrian coast.

The US/NATO got acquainted With it in Ukraine this summer.

originally posted by: spy66
Much of this might be clasified information in some countries.

- But Things NATO noticed the hard way was that simple Things like a Railroad tracks dont match up around europe. And that caused a lot of problems. Specially when tanks, APC and other HW was sent by Train to different locations without the drivers fallowing the Trains. And the personell had to take busses to get their gear.

- NATO found out that the European roads couldnt handel the weight of moste of the heave Equipment. Many briges couldnt be used. And these are just a fraction of all the Things that went wrong.

- Communications did work out that well either. It ended up with that they had to use conventional Methods. Because some NATO members use different Communications Equipment that did not match up With the NATO standard (phantom codes).

- I also have to mention the Language problem. People speak differnt languages in different parts of europe, and that caused a lot of missunderstanding and miss communication.

Correction, none of that is "classified" and is in fact public knowledge. Some of it is, in fact, just wrong.

1. Railroads in Europe tend to be all the same gauge, with few exceptions - mostly in the UK/Ireland and Iberia. The fact you think this is news to NATO or even classified is a joke, as trains such as Eurostar were designed to run on different gauges.
   
2. NATO have only just found that some roads/bridges might be unsuitable? Even though those very nations in NATO are the ones who regularly use those roads themselves, as they are the ones who built them? I have no doubt there are roads/bridges which are unsuitable but trying to present this as news or something shocking to NATO is a joke.
   
3. I find it extremely unlikely there was interoperability issues between NATO forces on their comms equipment. NATO has, for a very long time, striven to minimise this.
   
4. Language problems? Again, I find this extremely unlikely. Most Europeans speak English very well.
   

Your little list just sounds of making mountains out of molehills, even when there are no moles.