Tactical advantage: Russian military shows off impressive new gear

a reply to: doompornjunkie

How bad is the recoil of your carbine? That is the maximum amount of energy that round can exert on the target. When the round goes off, it pushes on the rifle into us, recoil, and it projects the round forwards.

When that round hits a helmet it's no more energy than using your head to rest the rifle against instead of your shoulder, and guess what 5.56 isn't that much energy. IF the round is stopped it's stopped. Scary as # to take hat hit, but it's not even close to hurting your head.

I seriously almost pooped my pants, when I read the title. Russia is hanging in the ropes, no matter how you look at it. Thank God, not the gullible make the decisions. Sometimes when I am on ATS I seriously question if mankind is not simply to stupid for demo-crazy. If you really believe they got anything that would help them, when the Life, the Universe and Everything is uniting against them, I'd like to know what that would be? But sure, they are so strong and they got all the cool tech...
As a side note: you know the Crimean Tatares got beaten up by Russians shortly after they came to "free them from the dangerous Ukrainians"?

a reply to: Hijinx

Are you familiar with the finer aspects of physics?

A) The rounds we are speaking of are almost always fired from semi/full-auto weapons. The nature of semi/full-autos results in reduced felt recoil because of the energy used to move all the parts in the gun.

B) Sure for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but over what size of area are these two actions being exerted? The butt stock on a gun is roughly 1 inch wide by 4-5 inches long. The bullets we are speaking of are under .25 inches in diameter. So the bullet is going to be unleashing its energy on an area that is way smaller than the butt of the gun. This is partly why bullets will slice through things, but guns merely push.

C) Last but not least in the recoil impulse... which equates into G forces. The recoil impulse of the gun is much longer than the impulse that the supersonic bullet, which again means that the gun is going to push, but the bullet is going to HIT and dump its energy fast.

So no, getting hit on your helmet with a 50-65 grain projectile flying at 3000fps DOES unleash a massive amount of energy almost instantaneously and results in bad TBI's.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: matafuchs

Well the informants from your sources are either fake, ill-informed, or idiots. 5.45 AP rounds are not AP. They have a mild steel core, not armor piercing. Yes yes, it may be deceiving, but match mild steel against trauma plates and the trauma plates will win all day.

The only AP factor to it is its ability to penetrate a Kevlar helmet. A 5.56 m855 will do the same as well.. no real advantage here especially after you consider that 1000+ft/lbs of energy hitting your helmet is gonna seriously F U up regardless of if it penetrates or not.

This seems like fear mongering.. my 2 cents.. yes I'm a gun guy... a big one.

When the source makes statements like;

...have been studying images of Spetsnaz, Russia’s ubiquitous special forces, and airborne troops since they conquered the Crimea region and mobilized to strike eastern Ukraine.

Russia did not 'conquer' Crimea. Crimea voted, legally and without the violence shown from the Fascists in Kiev, to become part of the Russian Federation and leave Ukraine. No conquering involved.

And Russia has not 'mobilized to strike eastern Ukraine'..Eastern Ukraine also want to ditch the Fascists who've illegally and violently grabbed power in Kiev and also look to want to join with the Russian Federation, no mobilization of a strike force needed...the people who dislike fascists are doing it for themselves.

If the source is wrong about those important points, they can be wrong about all of it, and the entire piece may be a lie, a hoax trying to drum up fear hoping for more investment in some arms manufacturer connected to body armour, etc.

a reply to: matafuchs

"Russia now has the world’s third-highest defense budget, at over $70 billion."

Lets put this into perspective because the USA spends about $3bn a day on defense. it's not under attack and is not being surrounded so do american tax payers think they are getting value for money

"a Vermont gun manufacturer. “They’ve got new grenade launchers that are awesome"

Well he would say that because he wants to sell more guns, say they are not only needed but will be better and get his hands on some of the $1000bn a year military budget.

Next they will using pickup trucks that do 35 to the gallon to mount guns/missiles/rpg's on them, costing $20,000 each instead of $20m each and having double the speed of these american tanks. Yes they can afford to loss a few in the field of battle.

What's happening to the price of gas at the pumps today because that's got to go up to make this phony war worthwhile

A lot of what my post was meant to bring about was that Russia is not the weak country that the MSM wants us to believe.

Crimera was like the beginning of WW2. No shots were really fired, a larger country came in to claim what was once theirs and once again, history repeating itself, Poland is shaking a bit.

Any future war, no matter the tech, will come down to ground fighting and the one who is equipped to kill the most effectively and efficiently will have the upper hand.

originally posted by: matafuchs
Any future war, no matter the tech, will come down to ground fighting and the one who is equipped to kill the most effectively and efficiently will have the upper hand.

Sorry but I think you is wrong.

Why waste energy and destroy building or pollute the ground (well anymore than fracking) when we have biological weapons at the ready.

Our dear elite banker leaders of the world won't allow us to keep consuming resources and can genetically create the perfect slaves to do the jobs that machines struggle to do and the trouble is we serfs need to be culled so they can inherit whats left of the earth for themselves.

I hope I am wrong but it seems more logical to me.

a reply to: matafuchs

Seriously, after more than a decade in active combat, we don't have the Best Helmets and Body Armor in the world? WTF?

I would have thought that we at least would have figured out that..

a reply to: doompornjunkie

You fail to understand physics yourself. That 65grain has less energy to transfer to the much heavier kevlar helmet, and the resulting head inside. IF the energy is not enough to overcome the resistance of the kevlar, the wearer will feel the impact but he is in no means in any danger of injury.


You either fail to understand what it is I'm saying, or are trying to use information you, yourself do not understand to try to humiliate and belittle me on a public forum.

IF the round does not have enough mass and energy to overcome the mass and resistance of the object it strikes, the energy transfer is less than the point of impact.


The round is also losing it's energy both fighting friction in the air and gravity on it's way to the target. The bullet will also impact with less energy than it left with. Yes, we are talking about .25 inches vs 4.5inches but the fact of the matter is that bullet will not be able to move that helmet more than the rifle moves the shooter, if it does not penetrate.

There is no 5.56 round that will wrench the neck of a soldier anywhere the mass of the round makes this impossible.

Much of the gear is still terrible, I am kinda bothered how they decided to clone MultiCam, such a lack of creativity

originally posted by: skunkape23
This world could be a much happier place if we spent as much on creating joy as we currently do on killing one another. Some humans are horrible animals...and they, for the most part, seem to be the ones in control. It will likely only get worse before it gets better. I dream of a day when the world throws a 70 billion dollar keg party.

LOL LOL LOL...there is always one in the thread who is want to post such nonsense. If the world is seriously a troubled place...a keg party is not the solution. That is the kind of nonsense that todays politicians and a compliant phony media shilling for phony politiciana will promote. But it makes some of us think we can think.

70 billion on a Keg party can be spent on much better items...and make real change. Not on a national drunk. That is what the Soviets have been doing for years before the collapse. A national drunk. Anyone traveling to the Soviet Union and even Russia today can confirm this. Whan to know what they were doing with our wheat..they were drinking it. Billions of dollars of it.


Russia ..even in the Soviet Days was continuing to carry out a doctrine called Pan Slavism . They continue with this today. Some of you had better read some history ..outside the mainstream nonsense which tries to pass for history, education and a phony lying media. I am not talking about a phony lying media in Russia ..but here in America..right now. Both liberal and phony conservative media.

Pan Slavism en.wikipedia.org...


Under Pan Slavism...the slavic peoples were the downtrodden, looked down upon..the dregs of the earth by every other nation.

Mother Russia ...took upon itself to come to the aid of Slavs anywhere they were found.



For those of you not versed in history there were five ideologies of world time and space...and only one successfully lives today.

They are found in E. C Knuths book .. "The Empire of The City."

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398716562&sr=8-1&keywords=the+empire+of+the+city


There were five ideologies of world power...



Pan Americanism

Anglo Saxon Superiority and Rule of the World

Pan Germanism

Asia for the Asiatics or Pan Asia

Pan Slavism


All of these have gone by the way side except for Anglo Saxon Superiority and Rule of The World. This ideology has secretly been carried on by having American fight the wars for the British Crown whenever their investments go arwy.

And it has happened numerous times since WW1 and WW2. The Gulf War 1 and 2 are classic examples. as are the instability going on in the mid east today. We are still the boot lacky for the English Banker and financial insitutions.

And It appears that Russia is working as a hegelian dialectic and a partner in this same struggle. Partners come and go as their fortunes rise and fall.

Nonetheless Mother Russia even today is continuing with Pan Slavism. What I find of interest is the total abscence of this explaination and history by the media and the body politic while trying to create bad guys everywhere on this issue. This is very telling to me.

There are no good guys on this issue..not here nor there. They are all bad guys.

Hope this helps some of you to see what is missing from the news reports and government statements.

Thanks,
Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999
Nonetheless Mother Russia even today is continuing with Pan Slavism. What I find of interest is the total abscence of this explaination and history by the media and the body politic while trying to create bad guys everywhere on this issue. This is very telling to me.

Is it ignored? Putin himself emphasises his supposed kinship and need to 'protect Russian-speakers', which is the first step.

But nobody's going to seriously believe any pan-Slavic "Mother Russia will liberate you" nonsense today and even Putin knows he can't pull that crap. Poland is not subjugated by the Prussian Empire, Czechoslovakia & Romania aren't subjugated by the Austro-Hungarian empire, and Bulgaria isn't subjugated by the Ottoman Empire.

And all of them got to learn the meaning of Mother Russia's pan-Slavic liberation from 1948 to 1990 which sent them scurrying to the EU and NATO as soon as they got a chance.

Even a poll of the supposedly "pro-Russia" Eastern Ukraine shows that a large majority (70%) of the people don't want to be annexed by Russia though they also don't trust the goverment in the West. They just want more money and a better economy, which they've lost.

They just want more money and a better economy, which they've lost.

I cannot find any fault with a nation and people wanting this. Now how they go about it can be questionable.


But nonetheless..these five doctrines of power and nationhood were what is seen in history when you read it carefully. But they are not told or taught to people today. They should be.

Remember ...China is up and coming. Will they take on the mantle of Asia for the Asiatics..with China at the helm??

We have the same thing going on under the Doctrine of the Muslim Caliphate. Quietly and privily with governments and Media trying to ignore it..en toto. I think that governments are quitely helping it to take place.

I have no doubt that the Russians are operating under this olde Belief System. I also have no doubt that our media and government are trying to prevent this news and informations from getting out...about Pan Slavism by ignoring it..not mentioning it. Our government and media do not want the doctrine of Pan Slavism known amongst our own people. If this were so ..people might learn about the other four doctrines and what has become of them today. They will also learn, some of them, that America has secretly given up Pan Americanism and taken on the mantle of Anglo Saxon Superiority and Rule of the World with The English Crown. This is where our government does not want us to go or learn.
Putin may not be ignoring it..but the controlled west wants it ignored and never learned by our people.

What the people in these nations want makes no difference to the Russians. They are there to protect the people who do not want to come under whatever government these nations want to become. I also dont blame these nations from not trusting the West.
I also know that if Russia wanted...they could move in just like they did in Czechoslavakia in 1968.

history.state.gov...

I think to date the Russians have shown considerable restraint...unlike the West in the deliberate arming and desbabilization of Libya, and Egypt of recent...as well as continuing in Syria..to destabilize that nation as well.

I also think that the war mongers are here in the West..not in Russia and that the Ukraine is now a pawn in this game. This is unfortunate.

In time ..and once again... we will be contributing our fineset blood and resources to another war for someone else's profits.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: doompornjunkie

For a big time gun guy you sure are ill informed. First off the ban on 7n6 5.45x39 ammunition is based on ATF now classifying 5.45x39 ammo as PISTOL AMMUNITION! Now the armor piercing ammo definition for pistols states that ANY steel content in a projectile makes it illegal AP ammo, whereas the AP definition in regards to rifle ammo specifically says only hardened steel or brass cores count as AP. however because of the proliferation of ak pistols ALL 7.62 AND 5.45 X39 ammo is now subject to the pistol ammo AP definition and restrictions.

Also as a big gun guy you would know that 7n6 ammo is no longer the standard issue ammo for the russian army! Thats why its being sold surplus...As of right now the russian army issues 7n10 and 7n22 5.45 ammo both of which use hardened steel cores and are VERY much AP! Also by nature of the basic 5.45x39 projectile design the rounds are verymuch more effective than the 5.56x45 round the US army uses! Oh and 7n22 does pose very real threats to even the level 3 high end trauma plates.

Just a friendly reminder not to be too confident in your expertise

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: doompornjunkie

For a big time gun guy you sure are ill informed. First off the ban on 7n6 5.45x39 ammunition is based on ATF now classifying 5.45x39 ammo as PISTOL AMMUNITION! Now the armor piercing ammo definition for pistols states that ANY steel content in a projectile makes it illegal AP ammo, whereas the AP definition in regards to rifle ammo specifically says only hardened steel or brass cores count as AP. however because of the proliferation of ak pistols ALL 7.62 AND 5.45 X39 ammo is now subject to the pistol ammo AP definition and restrictions.

Also as a big gun guy you would know that 7n6 ammo is no longer the standard issue ammo for the russian army! Thats why its being sold surplus...As of right now the russian army issues 7n10 and 7n22 5.45 ammo both of which use hardened steel cores and are VERY much AP! Also by nature of the basic 5.45x39 projectile design the rounds are verymuch more effective than the 5.56x45 round the US army uses! Oh and 7n22 does pose very real threats to even the level 3 high end trauma plates.

Just a friendly reminder not to be too confident in your expertise

We can all Wikipedia the world to death.

But should we?

I'm good.

a reply to: TiedDestructor

Well when it comes to getting accurate and factual information yes we should.... Also as an engineering student who is very much into firearms technology i didnt get the info from wiki. however the info is thjere which was my point! well that and to throw cold water onto the people claiming to be subject matter experts in this thread and doing so in a condescending manner

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: TiedDestructor

Well when it comes to getting accurate and factual information yes we should.... Also as an engineering student who is very much into firearms technology i didnt get the info from wiki. however the info is thjere which was my point! well that and to throw cold water onto the people claiming to be subject matter experts in this thread and doing so in a condescending manner

Well damn.

Fair enough; carry on.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: matafuchs

Gun and body armour aside what ever new equipment Russia decide to field they really should make sure its EMP hardened/shielded because that's how NATO intend to stop them dead in their tracks should they decide to rattle there Saber any further into Europe. Point of fact it's probably the only way to stop them given their superior numbers regarding tanks and APCs.

When you stack up NATO MBT's and IFV's against the Russians, NATO outnumbers them quite well. Don't forget, Russia's main advantage during the Cold war was numbers as NATO has the technical edge, but this advantage has now gone. Not to mention NATO outnumbers Russian aircraft 4-1

a reply to: stumason

Stu i wish ib shared your optimism... but while you won't catch me saying russian tank guns come even close to nato 105 and 120mm guns and ammo in ANY category! Its a very big question mark how many drozd and follow on APS sets they've retrofitted to 1st 2nd and tertiary line armored vehicles!

The reason I bring this up is because of the likely mechanics of any confrontation we may face in the Ukraine.

1. If Putin decides to annex all of Ukraine he'd have basically 6 months to move armored units into the built up areas of Ukraine he wants to keep. This all but negates our better IFV AFV and MBT sighting systems and all around superior main gun accuracy, penetration, and maximum range. Hell really it then becomes an ATGM and PGM based artillery fight in many key ways. In that type of fight a Russian armored force with 75% or better of its armour sporting APS of one type or another would be an extremely telling advantage.

2. Stalingrad.... I would NOT want to face a russian combined arms unit dug into the built up areas of Ukraine!!

Ok now onto the rest of the bad news.... not only do Russian APS systems give their ground forces a TELLING advantage in the armored vehicle arena in a fight like this, but when you factor in the rest of the likely Russian systems we'd likely face NATO would be looking at having to marshal AT LEAST a 3:1 advantage in troops planes tanks and etc to even have a HOPE of dislodging the Russians!!! Also they'd be looking at potentially attritting the initial spearhead nato units to well below combat effective status in the opening hours of any ground fight!

Even worse ! It would FOR SURE come to a ground fight!! And it would be one where allied forces would not be able to depend on air dominance or even a sky free of enemy aircraft during this fight! The russians have a very competent and layered air defense network that is capable of deploying with combat units that would have Allied units battling to just stay alive even if Putin chose not to commit substantial airpower assets to the fight!

On top of this Russian troops especially VDV spetsnaz and et cetera are very much equipped with a very major destructive throw weight advantage from the squad level on up! Things like better lighter cheaper and much more plentiful High explosive weapons of all varieties would give even non elite units an edge over their american counterparts. The elite units though have an even more telling throw weight advantage as well as access to individual weapons easily capable of penetrating ESAPI plates at 0- 200 meters! Combine this with much longer ranged LMG and SAW type weapons also capable of penetrating ESAPI plates with current issue AP loadings and you have a nightmare scenario!

This is not histrionics or fear mongering.... this is all easily extrapolated information from commonly available non classified sources. The people in this thread making the claims of russian ineptness and claiming nato technology and etc is superior in every area are choosing to ignore the lessons the last decade of war should have taught them,. Either that or they lack the ability to extrapolate the implications of the enemy for the last decade using ancient6 and often times much LESS capable russian equipment than what the russian forces would be equipped with now.

They also are assuming the russians haven't learned ANYTHING from watching how their equipoment fared in the hands of the peopl;e they distributed it to and developed new items or etc based on this at ANY TIME in the last two decades!!!


This is a foolhardy assumption.

a reply to: roguetechie

Good points and well made, I can't really argue with your assessment there to be honest. I wasn't really making any assumption of a NATO clean sweep, just addressing the point that Russia does not have a numerical advantage.

Any conflict with Russia and NATO is going to be harking back to the days of the 40's and be a bloody mess - which is why I think that despite NATO's clear technological and numerical advantage, we've been quite careful in our approach to Putin.

I agree with your assessment that if the Russians had the chance to dig in, digging them out will be costly. The key, I feel, is countering any Russian invasion of Ukraine swiftly and brutally. Whether NATO can deploy enough, quickly enough is in doubt, however, not least because of political and economic concerns which would cause hesitation amongst those who hold the reigns - any delay in countering an invasion increases the chances of Russia holding on to any gains made.